Today's postings
- [Baren 38345] Re: More on Chinese block printing: shui-yin (Bea Gold)
- [Baren 38346] Re: does anyone draw anymore? ("Oscar Bearinger")
- [Baren 38347] drawing/not (cjchapel # casco.net)
- [Baren 38348] Re: does anyone draw anymore? (mpereira # newsite.com.br)
- [Baren 38349] Re: does anyone draw anymore? (Charlie overshoe)
- [Baren 38350] RE: does anyone draw anymore? ("viza arlington")
- [Baren 38351] Re: drawing/not (reneeaugrin # aol.com)
- [Baren 38352] Re: does anyone draw anymore? (Shelley Hagan)
- [Baren 38353] RE: does anyone draw anymore? (Tom Kristensen)
- [Baren 38354] Drawing (Gayle Wohlken)
- [Baren 38355] Re: does anyone draw anymore? (Sharri LaPierre)
Message 1
From: Bea Gold
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:20:22 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38345] Re: More on Chinese block printing: shui-yin
Send Message: To this poster
Louise, the next to last photo in the Chinese woodblock article has the lines printed. It's the same as the rest. I haven't printed that way for a while but may go back. Bea Gold
Message 2
From: "Oscar Bearinger"
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:34:12 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38346] Re: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
hi all
what Ruth said pointed to what this means for me.
drawing for me is a way of thinking about what I'm doing, what I'm
intending, what the images say to me.
as for computer-assisted reality, and playing around with technology, little
of it inspires myself (except for contact functions with other people, like
Baren!!!).
however, as Heidegger said, technology is a fundamental question of the
(post) modern world, and we cannot avoid dealing with it in one fashion or
another.
drawing is just a wonderful way of being for me!
and self portraits (at regular intervals) are a useful measure for myself
of what's going on, internally and externally.
Oscar
ink brush and pen addict
ps drawing on the plate is so courageous, Ruth!
what Ruth said pointed to what this means for me.
drawing for me is a way of thinking about what I'm doing, what I'm
intending, what the images say to me.
as for computer-assisted reality, and playing around with technology, little
of it inspires myself (except for contact functions with other people, like
Baren!!!).
however, as Heidegger said, technology is a fundamental question of the
(post) modern world, and we cannot avoid dealing with it in one fashion or
another.
drawing is just a wonderful way of being for me!
and self portraits (at regular intervals) are a useful measure for myself
of what's going on, internally and externally.
Oscar
ink brush and pen addict
ps drawing on the plate is so courageous, Ruth!
Message 3
From: cjchapel # casco.net
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:57:25 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38347] drawing/not
Send Message: To this poster
I love drawing. Making marks. I can't argue with anything Maria has
said. I do think we're on the cusp of wedding technology with fine
craft.
So many people who have computers at their disposal, (and who
doesn't?), think that they have the skill without all that pesky
training. I was in the sign business for years - pre computer. I
actually used paint, had to know letter forms, and spacing. Want to
see some bad lettering? It is so common place now that it's not even
noticed. Spacing? Design? Composition? Our local University doesn't
teach lettering anymore and they had a master teaching there - Allen
Wong. Now I guess they just hunt and peck and yikes - kerning? Who
needs it? Some think that fonts come from a pull down menu. :-) At
the risk of sounding my age, I'll stop this rant before it goes further.
But this thinking parallels the "get it from the web" approach to
printmaking. I'm hoping that it's just a phase that we must go
through. I sure use my computer as a tool and for some tasks it's a
life saver.
There is a reemerging interest in letterpress. It gives me hope.
People are learning to hand set type. Some are appreciating the looks
of letterpress printing. And it's causing a renewed interest in
woodcuts and etching and engraving and calligraphy. I think it has to
do with education. People just don't know. Usually once they do know
they appreciate the "real deal".
This post is pretty random.
I'd better get back to the drawingboard. :-)
C. Chapel
said. I do think we're on the cusp of wedding technology with fine
craft.
So many people who have computers at their disposal, (and who
doesn't?), think that they have the skill without all that pesky
training. I was in the sign business for years - pre computer. I
actually used paint, had to know letter forms, and spacing. Want to
see some bad lettering? It is so common place now that it's not even
noticed. Spacing? Design? Composition? Our local University doesn't
teach lettering anymore and they had a master teaching there - Allen
Wong. Now I guess they just hunt and peck and yikes - kerning? Who
needs it? Some think that fonts come from a pull down menu. :-) At
the risk of sounding my age, I'll stop this rant before it goes further.
But this thinking parallels the "get it from the web" approach to
printmaking. I'm hoping that it's just a phase that we must go
through. I sure use my computer as a tool and for some tasks it's a
life saver.
There is a reemerging interest in letterpress. It gives me hope.
People are learning to hand set type. Some are appreciating the looks
of letterpress printing. And it's causing a renewed interest in
woodcuts and etching and engraving and calligraphy. I think it has to
do with education. People just don't know. Usually once they do know
they appreciate the "real deal".
This post is pretty random.
I'd better get back to the drawingboard. :-)
C. Chapel
Message 4
From: mpereira # newsite.com.br
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:05:44 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38348] Re: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
hi all
I too understand what you and all are saying.
I draw every day, every hour and minute,
I'm always with grafitti or pen and china ink on the hand
I draw with brsusehs too and like to use engravinf ink
like to use oilbased ink the same I use to print
I like to dissolve it with organic terenbitina
The majority of my prints are with my drawing right in the plate
as the last exchange I participated...
but it is correct that the people now don't like to drawn
they usually make any thing and print.
I hope to be understood
best wishes
murilo
ps I could do vwey much shows of my draweings becuase they are so much...
but - another thing -nobody cares!!!!
Message 5
From: Charlie overshoe
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:19:30 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38349] Re: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
Drawing is my first love ... it is what I do in waiting rooms, parking lots, fast food restaurants, casinos (when I can get away with it), airports, on public transportation, and of course, at home. If no people are available I have even done a few land/city/machinery scapes..... To me a drawing is about what the artist is seeing, feeling, or remembering .... unique and often much more alive than the paintings or other finished works that come from them.
And I do resent those who cut and paste using pieces of others art work .... In fact, it stinks and I think of those people as mind suckers .... like leeches but eating ideas instead of blood.
However, I often use my computer to draw. Since I'm a computer dunce I just use my mouse. As to the undo feature.. it's great, especially when using the paint bucket.... As a rule I save in stages.... the prelim. drawing is #1 then I play and save because every stage has a potential of it's own. Sometimes these drawings become prints or paintings but more often they remain just drawings.
One of the things I have always wanted to do at life drawing is to give everyone the same size sheet of paper and have them draw the full figure ... then mount a show with these drawings ... in sequence of course.... a nude in the round but as seen by 12 or 15 people from what ????.... an actual 6 degrees of physical separation and all the generational and cultural differences each person brings to the drawing board.
Oops, I'm rambling,
Barbara P.
<
> From: ruthleaf >
> It seems to me we're all missing the fact that drawing is one form
> of art by itself. What others create with whatever materials are
> available
> Is another form of art you may or may not like.To me drawing allows
> me to know what's going on in my mind. Sometimes I DRAW directly on
> The plate. For all of us who do old fashioned woodcuts,etchings or
> collographs there is drawing involved even if it's abstract. Ruth
>
Message 6
From: "viza arlington"
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:20:44 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38350] RE: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
I do and i think most artists and printmakers do too. i think it takes all kinds though. of course i have my preferences. i think the real culprits are the curators and gallery owners. i've never understood the ONE LOOK thing. why to all my prints have to look the same? even worse why do they have to "match" everyone else in the gallery. I don't think the majority of printmakers are doing this kind of work its just the latest thing the galleries have glommed onto so thats all your seeing right now. boooo
Message 7
From: reneeaugrin # aol.com
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:25:31 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38351] Re: drawing/not
Send Message: To this poster
Hi All,
I have to agree that it all has to do with education. I have just
spent a term where we have emphasized the idea of process over product.
So much of our society is reflected in the slap dash make it quick who
cares Art just so you can and sell it quick mode. Conversely,there is
so much feeling and thought to consider when a real hand made drawing
is created. I tell my youngest students that your hand is in direct
line with your eyes, your brain but also your heart, and to keep a
close tie to all of those things while you are in the process of
drawing. So much of the time they are busy with chattering about the
latest whatever, that the drawing does not reveal their own direction
or ideas. Then the parents often demand that there should be a
frameable piece at the end of each session. So sad. But they need to
be educated as well, I have to give them credit though, they do know
that Art is important, but I think they have forgotten why. ( Not all
parents are like this, it just depends.) Their children need to have
the experience of learning a fine and personal, individual, way of
expression. Now I am preaching to the choir!
Thank you for the topic Maria, I hope we will continue this
conversation. And, by the way, is our next exchange a theme or no
theme?
Renee
In beautiful, sunny but with biting cold wind Oregon.
I have to agree that it all has to do with education. I have just
spent a term where we have emphasized the idea of process over product.
So much of our society is reflected in the slap dash make it quick who
cares Art just so you can and sell it quick mode. Conversely,there is
so much feeling and thought to consider when a real hand made drawing
is created. I tell my youngest students that your hand is in direct
line with your eyes, your brain but also your heart, and to keep a
close tie to all of those things while you are in the process of
drawing. So much of the time they are busy with chattering about the
latest whatever, that the drawing does not reveal their own direction
or ideas. Then the parents often demand that there should be a
frameable piece at the end of each session. So sad. But they need to
be educated as well, I have to give them credit though, they do know
that Art is important, but I think they have forgotten why. ( Not all
parents are like this, it just depends.) Their children need to have
the experience of learning a fine and personal, individual, way of
expression. Now I am preaching to the choir!
Thank you for the topic Maria, I hope we will continue this
conversation. And, by the way, is our next exchange a theme or no
theme?
Renee
In beautiful, sunny but with biting cold wind Oregon.
Message 8
From: Shelley Hagan
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:30:15 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38352] Re: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
I think that the discipline of drawing is not fostered enough
particularly in teens and young adults (college students, etc.) We can't all
be Rembrandt but really pretty much everyone can draw. Maybe not to their
satisfaction at first but as with all skills it improves with practice and
guidance. I find that as the years go by I get better and better at it,
although I am still not as proficient as my creative eye would like me to
be.
Luckily, I am married to a man who has amazing illustration skills. Maybe
because I was an art director for a few years or maybe because I'm just a
bit lazy and bossy, I often enlist his skills for my various projects. My ox
card is a good example. I sketched and sketched away but all my ox kept
looking like cows even though I was looking right at a bunch of photo
references. Very frustrating - I couldn't get my hand to do what my brain
was telling it to do. After a plea for help Brian pointed out the nuances of
an ox's shape that makes it read like an ox and not a cow. After a bit of
coaching (take the horns out before up, the rounded nose reads as 'cow'
etc.) I was able to draw an animal that read more or less as an ox instead
of a cow.
Sometimes I am too impatient to "get it right" myself and I'll ask him to
take my sketch and rework it. He loves this because I then stare over his
should and micro-manage his production of my sketch. Also lucky for me is
the fact that he's patient and tries to see this as one of my (many) charms.
I then definitely enlist the help of Photoshop to do any resizing and some
tweaking before outputting and tracing on tissue paper. Photoshop gets a bad
rap. It is a wonderful tool but often misused by people who lack the
discipline to sit down and practice, practice, practice those skills of
translating what is in the mind's eye onto a medium of choice.
When asked how he learned to draw so well, Brian will say that as a boy he
used to copy comic book pages. First by actually tracing the pages with
tracing paper, eventually he could reproduce the page just by looking at it.
Years later he penciled books for Marvel and that taught him how to be fast.
His 'quick sketch' would take me a week to produce. But his speed and
understanding of form, lighting, details etc. came from good old fashioned
practice.
Now creativity is another matter. I just don't think it can be taught so
much as fostered in young minds. All too often I find that children are
being taught to take tests and memorize factoids and not encouraged to solve
problems and examine the natural world. I think it a real tragedy of the
school system that we are creating a generation of children who for the most
part are just not very creative people. Of course there are exceptions. In
my school district they have a Talented and Gifted (TAG) program where
students are singled out as early as kindergarten and several times a week
go to a special class which stresses the creative and organic development of
a solution.
How strange and sad that we (as a school district) seem to think that only a
hand full of kids have the ability to use their minds in such a way.
Instead the schools gather the majority together and teach them not to think
but to regurgitate data. As a result (imho) we are raising a generation of
children who are used to 'cut and paste' solutions to their lives, and who
lack the ability to tap into their creative mind as well as the discipline
to keep working a problem until the solution presents itself. So it seems
the Internet with its wealth of imagery takes the place of imagination and
Photoshop eliminates the time consuming and often frustrating need
to nurture a talent such as drawing (or painting or sculpture, etc.)
I will forever apologize for my painfully long posts,
Shelley
(for anyone that is interested Brian's work can be seen on his website at
http://www.artofhagan.com)
particularly in teens and young adults (college students, etc.) We can't all
be Rembrandt but really pretty much everyone can draw. Maybe not to their
satisfaction at first but as with all skills it improves with practice and
guidance. I find that as the years go by I get better and better at it,
although I am still not as proficient as my creative eye would like me to
be.
Luckily, I am married to a man who has amazing illustration skills. Maybe
because I was an art director for a few years or maybe because I'm just a
bit lazy and bossy, I often enlist his skills for my various projects. My ox
card is a good example. I sketched and sketched away but all my ox kept
looking like cows even though I was looking right at a bunch of photo
references. Very frustrating - I couldn't get my hand to do what my brain
was telling it to do. After a plea for help Brian pointed out the nuances of
an ox's shape that makes it read like an ox and not a cow. After a bit of
coaching (take the horns out before up, the rounded nose reads as 'cow'
etc.) I was able to draw an animal that read more or less as an ox instead
of a cow.
Sometimes I am too impatient to "get it right" myself and I'll ask him to
take my sketch and rework it. He loves this because I then stare over his
should and micro-manage his production of my sketch. Also lucky for me is
the fact that he's patient and tries to see this as one of my (many) charms.
I then definitely enlist the help of Photoshop to do any resizing and some
tweaking before outputting and tracing on tissue paper. Photoshop gets a bad
rap. It is a wonderful tool but often misused by people who lack the
discipline to sit down and practice, practice, practice those skills of
translating what is in the mind's eye onto a medium of choice.
When asked how he learned to draw so well, Brian will say that as a boy he
used to copy comic book pages. First by actually tracing the pages with
tracing paper, eventually he could reproduce the page just by looking at it.
Years later he penciled books for Marvel and that taught him how to be fast.
His 'quick sketch' would take me a week to produce. But his speed and
understanding of form, lighting, details etc. came from good old fashioned
practice.
Now creativity is another matter. I just don't think it can be taught so
much as fostered in young minds. All too often I find that children are
being taught to take tests and memorize factoids and not encouraged to solve
problems and examine the natural world. I think it a real tragedy of the
school system that we are creating a generation of children who for the most
part are just not very creative people. Of course there are exceptions. In
my school district they have a Talented and Gifted (TAG) program where
students are singled out as early as kindergarten and several times a week
go to a special class which stresses the creative and organic development of
a solution.
How strange and sad that we (as a school district) seem to think that only a
hand full of kids have the ability to use their minds in such a way.
Instead the schools gather the majority together and teach them not to think
but to regurgitate data. As a result (imho) we are raising a generation of
children who are used to 'cut and paste' solutions to their lives, and who
lack the ability to tap into their creative mind as well as the discipline
to keep working a problem until the solution presents itself. So it seems
the Internet with its wealth of imagery takes the place of imagination and
Photoshop eliminates the time consuming and often frustrating need
to nurture a talent such as drawing (or painting or sculpture, etc.)
I will forever apologize for my painfully long posts,
Shelley
(for anyone that is interested Brian's work can be seen on his website at
http://www.artofhagan.com)
Message 9
From: Tom Kristensen
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:56:19 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38353] RE: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
I guess I am guilty of using "a bunch of collaged appropriated
imagery mostly from the web" and since "anything that starts as a
photograph looks like a
photograph, no matter how cleverly it is altered in Photoshop" it is
unlikely that I will produce any
"original self-created ideas".
Given that I am clearly producing art that "is reproducible
by a thousand individuals in exactly the same way" I guess I should l
should bow down to the visionary artists of the baren forum who are
able to use the magic pencil. I know I should just give up, but I
feel a strange compulsion to carry on regardless.
Tom
imagery mostly from the web" and since "anything that starts as a
photograph looks like a
photograph, no matter how cleverly it is altered in Photoshop" it is
unlikely that I will produce any
"original self-created ideas".
Given that I am clearly producing art that "is reproducible
by a thousand individuals in exactly the same way" I guess I should l
should bow down to the visionary artists of the baren forum who are
able to use the magic pencil. I know I should just give up, but I
feel a strange compulsion to carry on regardless.
Tom
Message 10
From: Gayle Wohlken
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:02:32 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38354] Drawing
Send Message: To this poster
Tom, you're doing woodcuts. I don't think this is what Maria is
talking about. That you get your ideas from the internet and put them
together doesn't take away from your finished work which has your hand
solidly in it.
~Gayle
talking about. That you get your ideas from the internet and put them
together doesn't take away from your finished work which has your hand
solidly in it.
~Gayle
Message 11
From: Sharri LaPierre
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:53:47 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38355] Re: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
Leave it to Leaf, Ruth has hit the nail on the head when she says that
drawing is only one way to make art.
Contemporary art, by definition, reflects what is going on today, and
if appropriating and manipulating images is part of it, to me it all
seems apropos. Bernie Madoff (not sure of the spelling, but you know
the guy --- he Made-Off with everyone's money) certainly appropriated
funds as did all the Wall St. gurus with their credit default swaps.
So, yes, I think what the image makers of today are doing is ART that
reflects current events.
Art is not only drawing, painting, printmaking, sculpture, and it is
not all directly from the hand of the artist. Smithson's Spiral Jetty
comes to mind, and Rachel Rosenthal's performances, but then there are
those who would not consider either of those ART. Even if photoshop
and photographs are used the mind of the artist does get in there
somewhere.
It all has something to offer if we are willing to investigate and
accept - or reject, but at least think about it.
Were the exhibitions you witnessed limited to a particular medium or
subject? If you were looking only at images that were to be digitally
or photographically derived, that might explain a lot!
And, yes - every time I go to PNCA (Pacific Northwest College of Art)
I look at their drawings on the walls and am amazed at what these kids
are producing. I just finished a Traditions of the Master's painting
class in a studio which also teaches drawing from the live model and
each week there would be wonderful drawings on the wall. They were
attempts to capture the model in whatever pose he or she held that
week, but they were not art. Those students may take those drawings
and make them into art, though.
So, yes, Virginia, there is still drawing being taught.
To paraphrase a quote: All drawing is not art - All art is not drawing.
Cheers ~
Sharri
PS
Love that ox that showed up with his glass of vino. Think I will join
him!
drawing is only one way to make art.
Contemporary art, by definition, reflects what is going on today, and
if appropriating and manipulating images is part of it, to me it all
seems apropos. Bernie Madoff (not sure of the spelling, but you know
the guy --- he Made-Off with everyone's money) certainly appropriated
funds as did all the Wall St. gurus with their credit default swaps.
So, yes, I think what the image makers of today are doing is ART that
reflects current events.
Art is not only drawing, painting, printmaking, sculpture, and it is
not all directly from the hand of the artist. Smithson's Spiral Jetty
comes to mind, and Rachel Rosenthal's performances, but then there are
those who would not consider either of those ART. Even if photoshop
and photographs are used the mind of the artist does get in there
somewhere.
It all has something to offer if we are willing to investigate and
accept - or reject, but at least think about it.
Were the exhibitions you witnessed limited to a particular medium or
subject? If you were looking only at images that were to be digitally
or photographically derived, that might explain a lot!
And, yes - every time I go to PNCA (Pacific Northwest College of Art)
I look at their drawings on the walls and am amazed at what these kids
are producing. I just finished a Traditions of the Master's painting
class in a studio which also teaches drawing from the live model and
each week there would be wonderful drawings on the wall. They were
attempts to capture the model in whatever pose he or she held that
week, but they were not art. Those students may take those drawings
and make them into art, though.
So, yes, Virginia, there is still drawing being taught.
To paraphrase a quote: All drawing is not art - All art is not drawing.
Cheers ~
Sharri
PS
Love that ox that showed up with his glass of vino. Think I will join
him!