Today's postings
- [Baren 37727] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V45 #4648 (Dec 24, 2008) (Marilynn Smith)
- [Baren 37728] lasting through time (Barbara Mason)
- [Baren 37729] Re: Happy Holidays and Escher (Julio.Rodriguez # walgreens.com)
- [Baren 37730] RE: printing on canvas (Rosposfe # aol.com)
- [Baren 37731] archival thoughts, prolly redundant letter (ArtSpotiB # aol.com)
- [Baren 37732] Re: lasting through time (Graham Scholes)
- [Baren 37733] Holiday Print ("Orgren Alex C (Alex)")
Message 1
From: Marilynn Smith
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:44:32 GMT
Subject: [Baren 37727] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V45 #4648 (Dec 24, 2008)
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If I read this discourse correctly the prints on canvas were on raw
unsized canvas, not gessoed???? If so what would be the preservation
quality of these prints? Ungessoed canvas will not last through time.
Marilynn
unsized canvas, not gessoed???? If so what would be the preservation
quality of these prints? Ungessoed canvas will not last through time.
Marilynn
Message 2
From: Barbara Mason
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:20:19 GMT
Subject: [Baren 37728] lasting through time
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Marilynn,
This was a good point but I think many artists today are less concerned with the longevity of their work. Maybe then never plan to be famous or have their stuff around for 100 years.
The Japanese prints that we all admire so much are not on archival paper in the way we think of it yet many have survived for hundreds of years. I think the good thing about paper is that if you just put it away in a drawer it will really last a long time. Dr Gordon Gilkey once told me that canvas will rot off the wall while our paper is still in perfect condition. Of course he was a printmaker so a little prejudiced. I actually thought about this when I glued paper to gessoed wood panels, but on the other hand, when I am dead what do I care?
We got more snow last night and if you do not have chains and 4 wheel drive forget going out. My son drove me to the grocery store last night and it was a wild ride. All my immediate family lives close and has serious off road vehicles so we are covered for Christmas but I hate to think of how many folks are going to be alone and without even power tomorrow.
We are such whiners here in the NW as we get this stuff so seldom the news is on all day telling us what roads are passable. Stay home and safe is my advise.
Marilynn, you sure made the right decision to go south this year.
My best to all
Barbara
This was a good point but I think many artists today are less concerned with the longevity of their work. Maybe then never plan to be famous or have their stuff around for 100 years.
The Japanese prints that we all admire so much are not on archival paper in the way we think of it yet many have survived for hundreds of years. I think the good thing about paper is that if you just put it away in a drawer it will really last a long time. Dr Gordon Gilkey once told me that canvas will rot off the wall while our paper is still in perfect condition. Of course he was a printmaker so a little prejudiced. I actually thought about this when I glued paper to gessoed wood panels, but on the other hand, when I am dead what do I care?
We got more snow last night and if you do not have chains and 4 wheel drive forget going out. My son drove me to the grocery store last night and it was a wild ride. All my immediate family lives close and has serious off road vehicles so we are covered for Christmas but I hate to think of how many folks are going to be alone and without even power tomorrow.
We are such whiners here in the NW as we get this stuff so seldom the news is on all day telling us what roads are passable. Stay home and safe is my advise.
Marilynn, you sure made the right decision to go south this year.
My best to all
Barbara
Message 3
From: Julio.Rodriguez # walgreens.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:44:08 GMT
Subject: [Baren 37729] Re: Happy Holidays and Escher
Send Message: To this poster
Happy Holidays and a prosperous and healthy New Year to all my Baren
friends and family........
The MC Escher video clip that Andy mentioned is available on the Baren
blog site courtesy of YouTube.....
http://barenforum.org/blog/
I think it's worth noting that this was his last print and how he
registers the 'Snakes' block....I believe there is a center pin
registration that allows him to rotate the block around to create the
repeating image on the paper.....
Chinese New Year Ox exchange will stay open till the end of the year and
then we will close signup.
http://barenforum.org/new_year/index.html
thanks......Julio
friends and family........
The MC Escher video clip that Andy mentioned is available on the Baren
blog site courtesy of YouTube.....
http://barenforum.org/blog/
I think it's worth noting that this was his last print and how he
registers the 'Snakes' block....I believe there is a center pin
registration that allows him to rotate the block around to create the
repeating image on the paper.....
Chinese New Year Ox exchange will stay open till the end of the year and
then we will close signup.
http://barenforum.org/new_year/index.html
thanks......Julio
Message 4
From: Rosposfe # aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:23:53 GMT
Subject: [Baren 37730] RE: printing on canvas
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Those involved in the sale and restoration of vintage posters and other paper
ephemera...will mount these items either on Japanese paper or stretched
canvas using rice paste or another archival and reversible medium (wheat paste).
You should be able to paste your prints onto unprimed stretched canvas using
paste...I think the prints are often dampened first as most have to be
deacidified and need harsh fold lines removed. These are almost always stone
litho prints with oil based inks.
You could google Vintage poster restoration and probably ask one of the
restorers that do the work how they do it.
Ciao-
Andrew.
ephemera...will mount these items either on Japanese paper or stretched
canvas using rice paste or another archival and reversible medium (wheat paste).
You should be able to paste your prints onto unprimed stretched canvas using
paste...I think the prints are often dampened first as most have to be
deacidified and need harsh fold lines removed. These are almost always stone
litho prints with oil based inks.
You could google Vintage poster restoration and probably ask one of the
restorers that do the work how they do it.
Ciao-
Andrew.
Message 5
From: ArtSpotiB # aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:09:36 GMT
Subject: [Baren 37731] archival thoughts, prolly redundant letter
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Ohhh! One of my favorite topics! And a mention of Mr. G. too! He was a grand
man, wasn't he? A fine interviewer too. So kind yet determined. Took in my
work but tactfully declined that of my friend while we were together in the
interview at my insistence. Foolish me, I thought he'd like her work. It was a
great learning experience on tact and professionalism exhibited. Turns out her
art's uniqueness was due to early Parkinson's dementia, not ability, though it
had me fooled. Not Mr. G!
In the case of applying prints to canvas, I'm wondering why anyone would want
to do it? Is there a prestige factor that influences sales or some such? Does
the canvas mounting actually add to the print's wonderfulness in a special
way? I wish that more artists would figure out a way to use this opportunity as
a new Art factor. Maj Britt Hilstrom of California has done so, making the
substrate a part of the aesthetics. I've seen a few others. Let's explore the
possibilities.
Lemme see. There's room for everyone, eh? My own personal opinion is to cheer
on the broadening of fields, not to narrow them. Sometimes one has to act as
a bridge for those less open minded, of course. I think that it's a matter of
personal choice on whether to have one's work be archivally sound or not.
There's room for everyone. Storage contamination difficulties aside, it's a grand
world out there... and to do art at all is a wonderful thing.
Raw canvas isn't an issue here, Marlynn. Perhaps the ink's composition and
lightfastness is what is on your mind? I'd like to hear more on this topic.
I suppose that most reading here know that oily materials bring about rot
with either paper or canvas given enough time. Paper and canvas rot fast when
exposed to dampness. Both are susceptible to insect damage. And then there's
temperature fluctuations to contend with for the twain. The clue is "time".
The actual issues are two as far as I can see. First is, what are we going to
call "archival"? The second is must we choose?
This is my understanding that the definition of "archival" differs according
to the field discussed. In works on paper (including photography), one or two
hundred years is a long time. Given proper care, works on paper can last past
then. If the artist uses quality paper and good inks, that is, and there are
controls of exposure to light, moisture and temperature fluctuations. Works on
canvas last even longer, if properly prepared with yes, gesso for oil paints.
Acrylics are different, with hairline cracks being influential. The lasting
qualities of inks, whether applied to paper or canvas, is an interesting topic.
This brings to mind the topic of glicee "archival" qualities. UGH! Hopefully
that topic is settled and understood despite myths to the contrary!
Early on when awareness in Art started being concerned with preservation
(other than sculpture), materials were very much being explored. The most known
example is da Vinci's "The Last Supper". We are sorry to lose it, even if only
in incremental stages thanks to conservators. The next extensive exploration in
materials that I am aware of is when the Dadaists came through. They rejected
the tradition of exclusive use of only archivally sound materials. This
broadened our experience of art as creators and viewers. Since then, exploration,
invention and science has brought us further materials -- both lasting and not.
In the more recent past an interesting play of what's accepted as printmaking
has been influenced not only by photography but in the past several years by
computer's reproduction machines, misnomered as "printers". That's another
conversation, but a very riveting one. Photography's in via the back door!
Perhaps what is important to the artist is what is important. And to a lesser
degree, how the work is presented to the public. If an artist is concerned
with the longevity of the work, then do and say the right thing... use the
appropriate materials in relation to aims and claims. Make your choice! If an
artist doesn't care how long the work lasts, that's ok. The other way around also
applies. The trick is to choose what is appropriate for the budget, clientele
and what the work is worth historically. It's all good, whatever category the
work falls into. Be joyful with what you do.
On a more personal, experiential note... which explains why this topic is so
dear to me...
I come from a family of several generations of artists. My great
grandmother's paintings are lasting well due to archival methods though are of no
historical consequence. They're "nice". I cherish the redwood forest fire painting,
hauling it to the getaway car during the Oakland hills fire but know that it's
just sentiment, not of lasting value. Ironic, eh?
My mother's work is a different story, being collected by museums. She was of
the generation who rebelled with materials. There were several reasons as to
why. One was a deep resentment of how artists prices did not reflect the value
of the work until long after the artist dies. Personally, I have that one
resolved in my head regarding my own work.
In my own collection of her works I'm seeing the more experimental items
decay and note that they are easily damaged. Her friends said that there "wasn't a
media that she didn't try" to good avail. [Or was it "medium", I never can
remember...] At any rate, the changes grieve me. I know that museums have
budgetary boundaries that force choices for preservation and restoration. When my
art estate is dissolved, will those works of hers be preserved or neglected or
even acquired at all? My art executor will have one heck of a job, that's for
sure.
So, so much for a windy letter. I hope that you, dear reader, find it of
value.
ArtSpot Out
Benny Alba at OMebase. Shopping done, mailed out the Exchange and am
luxuriating in a rainy day.... and boring you!
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. -Eric Hoffer, philosopher
and author (1902-1983)
man, wasn't he? A fine interviewer too. So kind yet determined. Took in my
work but tactfully declined that of my friend while we were together in the
interview at my insistence. Foolish me, I thought he'd like her work. It was a
great learning experience on tact and professionalism exhibited. Turns out her
art's uniqueness was due to early Parkinson's dementia, not ability, though it
had me fooled. Not Mr. G!
In the case of applying prints to canvas, I'm wondering why anyone would want
to do it? Is there a prestige factor that influences sales or some such? Does
the canvas mounting actually add to the print's wonderfulness in a special
way? I wish that more artists would figure out a way to use this opportunity as
a new Art factor. Maj Britt Hilstrom of California has done so, making the
substrate a part of the aesthetics. I've seen a few others. Let's explore the
possibilities.
Lemme see. There's room for everyone, eh? My own personal opinion is to cheer
on the broadening of fields, not to narrow them. Sometimes one has to act as
a bridge for those less open minded, of course. I think that it's a matter of
personal choice on whether to have one's work be archivally sound or not.
There's room for everyone. Storage contamination difficulties aside, it's a grand
world out there... and to do art at all is a wonderful thing.
Raw canvas isn't an issue here, Marlynn. Perhaps the ink's composition and
lightfastness is what is on your mind? I'd like to hear more on this topic.
I suppose that most reading here know that oily materials bring about rot
with either paper or canvas given enough time. Paper and canvas rot fast when
exposed to dampness. Both are susceptible to insect damage. And then there's
temperature fluctuations to contend with for the twain. The clue is "time".
The actual issues are two as far as I can see. First is, what are we going to
call "archival"? The second is must we choose?
This is my understanding that the definition of "archival" differs according
to the field discussed. In works on paper (including photography), one or two
hundred years is a long time. Given proper care, works on paper can last past
then. If the artist uses quality paper and good inks, that is, and there are
controls of exposure to light, moisture and temperature fluctuations. Works on
canvas last even longer, if properly prepared with yes, gesso for oil paints.
Acrylics are different, with hairline cracks being influential. The lasting
qualities of inks, whether applied to paper or canvas, is an interesting topic.
This brings to mind the topic of glicee "archival" qualities. UGH! Hopefully
that topic is settled and understood despite myths to the contrary!
Early on when awareness in Art started being concerned with preservation
(other than sculpture), materials were very much being explored. The most known
example is da Vinci's "The Last Supper". We are sorry to lose it, even if only
in incremental stages thanks to conservators. The next extensive exploration in
materials that I am aware of is when the Dadaists came through. They rejected
the tradition of exclusive use of only archivally sound materials. This
broadened our experience of art as creators and viewers. Since then, exploration,
invention and science has brought us further materials -- both lasting and not.
In the more recent past an interesting play of what's accepted as printmaking
has been influenced not only by photography but in the past several years by
computer's reproduction machines, misnomered as "printers". That's another
conversation, but a very riveting one. Photography's in via the back door!
Perhaps what is important to the artist is what is important. And to a lesser
degree, how the work is presented to the public. If an artist is concerned
with the longevity of the work, then do and say the right thing... use the
appropriate materials in relation to aims and claims. Make your choice! If an
artist doesn't care how long the work lasts, that's ok. The other way around also
applies. The trick is to choose what is appropriate for the budget, clientele
and what the work is worth historically. It's all good, whatever category the
work falls into. Be joyful with what you do.
On a more personal, experiential note... which explains why this topic is so
dear to me...
I come from a family of several generations of artists. My great
grandmother's paintings are lasting well due to archival methods though are of no
historical consequence. They're "nice". I cherish the redwood forest fire painting,
hauling it to the getaway car during the Oakland hills fire but know that it's
just sentiment, not of lasting value. Ironic, eh?
My mother's work is a different story, being collected by museums. She was of
the generation who rebelled with materials. There were several reasons as to
why. One was a deep resentment of how artists prices did not reflect the value
of the work until long after the artist dies. Personally, I have that one
resolved in my head regarding my own work.
In my own collection of her works I'm seeing the more experimental items
decay and note that they are easily damaged. Her friends said that there "wasn't a
media that she didn't try" to good avail. [Or was it "medium", I never can
remember...] At any rate, the changes grieve me. I know that museums have
budgetary boundaries that force choices for preservation and restoration. When my
art estate is dissolved, will those works of hers be preserved or neglected or
even acquired at all? My art executor will have one heck of a job, that's for
sure.
So, so much for a windy letter. I hope that you, dear reader, find it of
value.
ArtSpot Out
Benny Alba at OMebase. Shopping done, mailed out the Exchange and am
luxuriating in a rainy day.... and boring you!
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. -Eric Hoffer, philosopher
and author (1902-1983)
Message 6
From: Graham Scholes
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 04:02:59 GMT
Subject: [Baren 37732] Re: lasting through time
Send Message: To this poster
Barbara Mason wrote:
> Marilynn,
> This was a good point but I think many artists today are less
> concerned with the longevity of their work. Maybe then never plan to
> be famous or have their stuff around for 100 years.
I’m thinking 1000 years... ( The Japanese prints that we all admire so much are not on archival
> paper in the way we think of it yet many have survived for hundreds
> of years.
I believe most of these.... anything I have seen at art galleries by
the famous guys .... is on hosho paper and therefore that stuff is
archival....
> I think the good thing about paper is that if you just put it away
> in a drawer it will really last a long time.
I think you have to be carefully about that. It all depends on the
kind of paper. Cotton is not bad... Pulp is not as good depending
on the amount of acidity [that] was allowed to remain during the paper making
process...
> Dr Gordon Gilkey once told me that canvas will rot off the wall
> while our paper is still in perfect condition. Of course he was a
> printmaker so a little prejudiced. I actually thought about this
> when I glued paper to gessoed wood panels, but on the other hand,
> when I am dead what do I care?
Ah ha..... I have in mind my 3 children (artist proofs) and 8
grandchildren (numbered set). Each of them get a print of each edition
I have done for the last 16 years... It is an interesting
collection. My money is on this stuff could be valuable,
historically and maybe $$$. Only history will be the judge.
> We got more snow last night and if you do not have chains and 4
> wheel drive forget going out.
We are up to and over our ying yang with snow here in Victoria....
It is the first time since 1971 there has been a White Christmas.
Having had 50 years of them (back east) I am not impressed. We are
getting such flack from all our friends across Canada.
Colour me white
Graham
Merry Christmas every one....
Message 7
From: "Orgren Alex C (Alex)"
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 09:34:12 GMT
Subject: [Baren 37733] Holiday Print
Send Message: To this poster
Happy Holidays Everyone,
I've been pretty quiet since the last exchange I was in, but I've been
printing a bit. Here is this year's holiday print, based on a rabbit I
saw hiking among petroglyphs in New Mexico last month.
Although it's very simple, my goal was to be less premeditated than
usual, which I did by cutting the hair pattern without drawing it first.
It was also the least problematic printing I've done to date. I'm
getting dryer all the time.
It's printed on Yamaguchi paper from one 4"x5" shina block using Guerra
pigment dispersions and rice paste.
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2162649220082091602HMjNJu
Merry Printing, and Happy New Year,
Alex Orgren
I've been pretty quiet since the last exchange I was in, but I've been
printing a bit. Here is this year's holiday print, based on a rabbit I
saw hiking among petroglyphs in New Mexico last month.
Although it's very simple, my goal was to be less premeditated than
usual, which I did by cutting the hair pattern without drawing it first.
It was also the least problematic printing I've done to date. I'm
getting dryer all the time.
It's printed on Yamaguchi paper from one 4"x5" shina block using Guerra
pigment dispersions and rice paste.
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2162649220082091602HMjNJu
Merry Printing, and Happy New Year,
Alex Orgren