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Message 1
From: Aon97 # aol.com
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 13:29:21 EST
Subject: [Baren 26551] Reduction
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I'd like some feedback from other reduction-style printers. I am particularly
interested to hear from artists working with oil-based inks. I've been having
great success with my prints, but they are nowhere near where I want them to
be. Here are some problems I'm having (I'm self-taught at this, so if anyone
sees any kindergarten-level errors, PLEASE let me know.

a) I only use up to 7 colors, because the previous layers of ink dry and
prevent the ink from adhering. I've heard of some artists printing 20 or thirty
colors in a reduction cut, and I'd really like to know how THAT happens. Right
now, I'm finding that I need to all 8 colors in a single day, because if I wait
a day to do a color, the ink has dried, and my next color won't adhere. Any
advice for a guy who'd like to do one color on Friday, and the next the
following Friday?

b) One thing that has helped is to thin my inks with linseed. It works, a
bit, but I just feel wrong doing it.

c) I use a heavy-weight stock paper, and print dry. However, I just read the
directions for printing with dampened paper, and during my first test with it,
found it to be pretty amazing. I'm just wondering if anyone has advice on
reduction printing with regards to registration.

Thank you for any help you can share.
Jeff Dean
Hamburg NY

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Message 2
From: FurryPressII # aol.com
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 14:02:11 EST
Subject: [Baren 26552] Re: Reduction
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For one use Japan or cobalt dryer as ink dries by absorbing into the paper
and by air drying. With reduction printing the paper has already absorbed as
much as it can by the second layer of ink. Generally go from lighter to
darker colors and use as thin a layer of ink as you can. If you want to print a
light color over a dark one you may have to print it twice to get the right
color. Some people don't like the shine the ink has if printed in a number of
layers then you can mix in a product called "dullit" which graphic chemical
sells. They also sell a binder than can be mixed into the ink so it adheres
to dry ink better.
Some times it is better to use two or three blocks and do color reduction on
each instead of just using one block.
john center

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Message 3
From: Mike Lyon
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 13:24:36 -0600
Subject: [Baren 26553] Re: Reduction
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Jeff Dean wrote:
>I'd like some feedback from other reduction-style printers. I am particularly
>interested to hear from artists working with oil-based inks.

Well, you may not be particularly interested in this, as I've been
primarily printing aqueous for some time now -- that'll solve all the
overprinting problems you will continue to have reduction printing with
oils, though... Oil based inks (by design) stand up on the surface, so
after a few overprintings, you are no longer printing on paper but rather
on ink, and the surface which develops is usually nether pleasing nor
conducive to overprinting... Perhaps there are 'oily' printers out there
who are able to overprint repeatedly, but I doubt it... That's a realm
limited to aqueous, I believe...

>a) I only use up to 7 colors, because the previous layers of ink dry and
>prevent the ink from adhering. I've heard of some artists printing 20 or
>thirty
>colors in a reduction cut, and I'd really like to know how THAT happens.
>Right
>now, I'm finding that I need to all 8 colors in a single day, because if I
>wait
>a day to do a color, the ink has dried, and my next color won't adhere. Any
>advice for a guy who'd like to do one color on Friday, and the next the
>following Friday?

I've overprinted 7 colors with litho inks (from litho plates) -- but I
generally must let the prints dry LONGER between each printing, not
shorter, or you run into viscosity problems -- that begins when the wet ink
can't decide whether to stick to the wet ink already on the paper or to the
wet ink on the block... That can be very interesting and controllable in
viscosity printed intaglio (but that's not what you're into, I don't
think), so you'll have better luck, I believe, if you'll allow the printed
inks to set up quite a lot before printing the next color... After three
or four overprintings, you ought to give it a week or three before
proceeding... The next problem you'll have is that the ink film has quite
a bit of thickness, and your print surface will become more and more pebbly
and subsequent overprintings won't go on evenly...

>b) One thing that has helped is to thin my inks with linseed. It works, a
>bit, but I just feel wrong doing it.

Others can help you with good extenders for oil based inks (Barbara Mason,
John Center? You there?), but linseed oil is almost certainly not the
material to use -- it'll bleed through the paper and eat it up -- after 10
or 20 years your prints will be falling apart -- unless you completely seal
the paper surface with something first -- gesso, or rabbit skin glue will
work, but that will not help your absorbancy issues...

>c) I use a heavy-weight stock paper, and print dry. However, I just read the
>directions for printing with dampened paper, and during my first test with
>it,
>found it to be pretty amazing. I'm just wondering if anyone has advice on
>reduction printing with regards to registration.

Dry paper tends to stretch during repeated printing -- calendar it first by
running it through the press (if you're using a press) several times before
printing... Damp paper expands as moisture increases and contracts as it
becomes drier, so you'll want to maintain a more or less constant moisture
content as your printing progresses... The reason it seems to work better
damp is because the paper is softer when damp and so conforms to the block
surface with less pressure. For registration techniques, try
www.google.com -- look up "t and bar registration printmaking", "pin
registration printmaking", and "kento registration" -- you can read all
about kento registration (corner and side) in www.barenforum.org in the
encyclopedia. I've used all these methods pretty extensively (there are
others, too) and kento is the easiest and most certain for me (physical
registration of corner and side of sheet in carved recesses right on the
block or on a piece the blocks fit into) and works very well at least up to
20x30 inches or so.

Hope you find something here that will help! It's be nice to see some of
your work -- if you have any images on line, let us know where to look,
OK? Good luck!

Mike


Mike Lyon
Kansas City, Missouri
http://mlyon.com

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Message 4
From: "Carole Baker"
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 12:23:22 -0900
Subject: [Baren 26554] Re: fading pigment
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Gayle wrote:
I wonder if you would be able to talk
> more about your research with us, especially about the reds. Which
> reds in which brands, for instance, did you find impermanent? Is
> this true with oil based inks also? I have read that the alizarin hues
> are fugitive but not the cadmiums? Anything you can share will be
> appreciated.

Most of my testing has been with watercolor paint as that is what I mostly
paint and print with. Yes, Alizarin Crimson is fugitive, as well as Rose
Madder Genuine, both cool reds and both of which I use to paint with. I now
use Anthraquinoid red but it isn't the same, just can't get the same colors
in mixtures. There are some really beautiful quinacridone hues that I
haven't tried and they are rated permanent...Daniel Smith has them. I use
Holbein "Opera" for flowers a lot (toned down with other colors so it won't
look like peptobismo.) I couldn't get it to fade in the window in 6 months
though it has a moderate lightfastness rating by Holbein. Avoid rose
tyrien...I once read how it was just the right color for roses and it was,
but it faded, not even in direct sun, in a couple of weeks. I bought some
tubes of watercolor from my printmaking teacher with Japananese writing
only. The pink one faded to nothing after a few months and the green
(sap-green looking) faded somewhat. The blue and another green,(they look
to be probably phthalos) were fine.

I've often thought I should get the Wilcox book. I have Hilary Page's Guide
to Watercolor Paints which is very good and tells what if you use
watercolors. There is a lot of info at
http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html probably all anyone needs for
watercolor, tells you how to do your own testing...
http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt6.html#yourtest

I assume that the same pigment mixed with oil will have the same
lightfastness. Who knows? You could certainly try testing yourself. I've
read that mixing certain pigments with others will cause them to become
fugitive...some chemical reaction. I probably ought to test my pigments
mixed with rice paste and methyl-cellulose.

Carole Baker
Gustavus, Alaska

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Message 5
From: "Maria Diener (aka Arango)"
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 14:24:01 -0800
Subject: [Baren 26555] Re: Reduction
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> Oil based inks (by design) stand up on the
> surface, so
> after a few overprintings, you are no longer printing on
> paper but rather
> on ink, and the surface which develops is usually nether pleasing nor
> conducive to overprinting... Perhaps there are 'oily'
> printers out there
> who are able to overprint repeatedly, but I doubt it...
> That's a realm
> limited to aqueous, I believe...

In the eye of the beholder...I have some reduction prints that look like oil
paintings, with the ink layering in the shape of the block and more so on
the edges of the print. The prints begin to look like a cross between the
carved block itself and a stained glass window, with the ridges around the
edge of each color area building up as you layer. The result is very
relief-like and very "painterly" and definitely pleasing.

Certainly what you cannot do (hardly) is predict the transparency and
therefore the result of inks overlaying each other. But even in this I
believe Barbara Mason has some good experience and great results. I have a
couple of trial proofs where I used a three process colors plus key block,
all transparent inks for the underlayer (at that time, I did the color
separations in my head). Then I reduced each block twice to achieve opacity
in shadows, volume and relief.

To leave the layers of ink as "open" as possible (allow it to accept more
ink), use setswell compound from Graphic Chemical which is designed for that
purpose. I would disagree with John on the use of Cobalt drier, as it dries
the ink very fast but also "closes" the layer so that it becomes more
brittle and impervious to further layering.
Linseed oil as a reducer is probably not a good idea, but plate oil is
(boiled linseed to different thicknesses). Even then, it should be used very
sparingly or you will delay the drying time of underlayers. Also, added
plate oil tends to make some underlayers blotch when the next layer(s) are
printed so it is absolutely imperative to mix and mix and mix and mix well.

Paper becomes pretty irrelevant once you begin to print ink on ink, but I
would choose a thick paper to hold all that weight rather than the thinner
Japanese papers. Mike is absolutely correct again, paper will stretch with
repeated printings so watch your registration on later layers or
pre-stretch.

Having said all that, my max number of layers so far is 13, after which if
I'm not done, sheesh...enough already.

Hope this all helps,
Maria

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Message 6
From: "marilynn smih"
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 14:45:18 -0800
Subject: [Baren 26556] RE: Baren Digest (old) V29 #2876
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I always knew watercolor pigments fade in time, especially in direct sun.
Carole, have heard of your experiment before and if it is iimportant to know
then yes i would say everyone should do this with their pigments. Oil has
its own ways of changing with time. All art needs to be stored properly or
you will loose it faster.
I am loving my new myrtle wood. It is harder than the basswood, but still
carves with relative ease. I now understand the reason for starting with
the softer wood, one could get frustrated easily without carving knowledge
from a softer wood. Am doing a small reduction plate and so far have only
cut my kentos. When I get into carving the image I will know more how the
finer lines hold up, this is a complicated piece, so am glad to have the
harder wood.
Okay this question was just asked the other day. But stupid me i did not
save the info. I have been using a honing leather strop for keeping tools
nice and sharp. Have not gotten into a stone as have not had any nicks,
until now. So what is the best set of stones for repairing my nick? Guess
if i order it i will have to wait until I get back to the states to really
do the job. thanks everyone.
Marilynn

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Message 7
From: FurryPressII # aol.com
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 17:55:58 EST
Subject: [Baren 26557] Re: Reduction
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There is more than one way to skin the cat in doing reduction printing. I
use dryer because I want the ink to dry in a reasonable time. My first
reduction print where I did not use this dryer it took weeks for a print to dry in
the manner of an oil painting. I think you can use Setswell and dryer at the
same time.

Printing wet on wet does have a place in relief printing but after 8 layers
of ink would create a problem. You may want this effect.

Most of my color reduction prints were done on wood engraving blocks and not
wood cuts. So the practice is to put ink in very thin layers as I can. The
main reason I did reduction blocks as wood engravings was the cost of
engraving blocks but I do like the effect. At the time I was doing this I was into
photo realism and it seemed to work well for this effect.

If shiny ink offends use "dullit" or you can print a varnish layer over
the whole print. I personally like the effect of the different layers of ink.

john center

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Message 8
From: Barbara Mason
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 17:35:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 26558] Re: Reduction
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Jeff,
It depends on what you want for your end result how you approach this. I am a transparent layer gal and mix litho ink (Handschy from Graphic Chemical) with a mixture of 1/2 setswell and 1/2 transparent base. I mix this in my ink, usually half ink and half mixture. I print on lots of different papers with this and I too usually print it one plate behind the other....not reduction, just lots of plates. I use two colors to make three and so on, so I get a lot of colors with less plates. You can work this out eventually so you can do it automatically in your head. I do not use dryer as I use very thin layers of ink and have no problem with it drying. The setswell is formulated to allow ink to stick to the next layer so is exactly the right medium for this.

If you want opaque ink....it is harder, at least for me. Each layer needs a couple of days to dry...be sure to use a piece of newsprint to blot the paper after you print, lay it over the print and rub with the side of your hand down the surface of the print...do not move the newsprint.
This will remove extra ink and make the layers dry a bit faster. I do not use dryer, but if you decide to use it use very little. Dip a wick into the dryer and use one or two drops in your ink...do not get it on your skin as it is poison. I know printmakers that always use it...but since I use such transparen ink in such thin layers, I don't feel I need it. The key is thin layers of ink, carefully built up on your block before you print.

Do not use linseed oil, use flash oil or burn plate oil. Linseed oil is the binder in oil paint and the binder in ink is the linseed oil that had been cooked until it is the burnt plate oil. This will not harm the paper like linseed oil. I would always print dry with this process, it is just too hard to keep paper damp while you are carving between printing and 8 colors and printing and carving in one day could kill you. I rarely have paper stretch on me, although did have a problem with printing the paper sideways a while back...lesson learned. Paper is more stable up and down than side to side. This print was done with transparent ink on dry kitakata paper using the kento registration system. It is a 7 color reduction block and I think it took me about a week to do it. http://www.barenforum.org/members/mason/exchange_9.jpg

You can make a registration board for the kento system out of mat board and foam core and a bit of tape. Maria has one on her site, I think made of wood and matboard. www.1000woodcuts.com
If you have more questions, let us know.
Best to you,
Barbara

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Message 9
From: Aon97 # aol.com
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 23:07:05 EST
Subject: [Baren 26559] Re: Reduction
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Thank you to everyone who has responded. I'm glad to have gotten a few
different points of view, and I will be investigating each as I go. You have all
been a great help!
J

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Message 10
From: derrick sampson
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 22:31:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 26560] Re: ball point pen drawing
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wow, that is just about the coolest thing that i have
seen in a long time. im brand spanking new to this
forum and have been walking aroundwith my head in the
clouds for almost two weeks. i cannot belive
that there are so many people out there doing this kind
of wonderful and beautiful art. it has been a real
challenge to find people who share my passion, or to
find people who can help me advance my work or to give
me critiques, or to justchat about stuff with. thank
you all!

pennfold
tacoma, wa.

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