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Message 1
From: baron # vurtmedia.com
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 00:16:55 +1000
Subject: [Baren 25425] Pondering the meaning of it all...
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Hi

I have read the debate on the political print exchange, somewhat aghast at
times. We all have differing opinions and differing agendas, there is no
blame or fault in that, that is life. Printing or using the processes of
reproductive printing are the tools that we have chosen to make our
presence felt in the world, it is how we communicate with others. Some of
us choose to talk only of happy and pretty things, we choose not to ruffle
feathers whilst others choose to voice loudly our fears thoughts and
opinions. The amount of concern that the latter group who wish to voice
their thoughts has elicited is extraordinary. I find it hard to believe
that I am living in a time where people are afraid of opinion, as no matter
what side you take on the "politic" the real debate here is about saying or
not saying.

I will set up a web page tomorrow night
http://www.vurtmedia.com/exchange.html anyone that wishes to indulge in a
political exchange will be welcome to use it, initially to decide and vote
on the type of exchange it will be and finally to register for the exchange.

This is outside of Baron as it seems to me that the Baron group do not want
to risk anything that may impact on the harmony and hard work that they
have put into the list, and I can see the value of that position. It takes
a lot of work to keep a list like this going. At the same time I can see
that there is a need for people to put forward their agendas, and art,
particularly print has been in the forefront of this for hundreds of years.
I am offering this opportunity up out of respect for both sides.

Regards

Lawrence

PS Eli and any other interested parties could you contact me off list and
we will nut out some of the details; lawrence@vurtmedia.com

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great
moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.
Dante 1265 - 1321

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Message 2
From: Sharri LaPierre
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:03:41 -0700
Subject: [Baren 25426] Re: political print exchange
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Well, here I go sticking my neck under the blade again. May I suggest
that you all run, don't walk, to your nearest dictionary and look up
the word "politics" or "political". It, they, have much broader
meanings that only having to do with government and party politics.
There are many kinds of politics: office, marital, social, etc. To
think that anything political has only to do with bona fide political
parties is to be ill informed.

Having jumped on my pedagogical soapbox, I will now hop down and say
that a 'political exchange' could embody all the various kinds of
politics that roam the earth. I think it is a great idea, Eli, and I
would be delighted to participate.

Carol, if you think 9/11 wasn't political - well, I just don't know
what to say so I won't say anything. (There, see - I didn't say
anything!) :-)

If anyone thinks I intended to offend Marilynn, let me assure you I did
not, and have written a personal apology to her. I only meant what
Myron said so much better than I, that other subjects are often the
topic of conversation on the forum and should not be disallowed. The
information about Artists Rights was just that: information. It was
not a viewpoint expressed, it was only the passing on of information
which should be of interest to any artist, regardless of medium. If
you wanted to contribute to the artists legal fund that was your
choice, it was not commented on one way or another. It was just
information, folks, and was prefaced that it was not a political
statement. I hope people will continue to send messages of general
information to the forum, and won't let a few suppress such information
from reaching the rest of us. And, if it is something taking place in
another country, being a member of this planet, we should be just as
interested in it as if it were in our own country.

At the risk of being political I wish you all a Happy 4th of July,

Sharri

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Message 3
From: Barbara Mason
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:43:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 25427] modertion and the council
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Myron,
I am sure your post was not removed by the moderator, as she does not read posts before they go to the list. Our moderation happens after the fact, so if someone gets out of hand we remind them that this is not the place and if it continues the council eventually does not allow them to post. This has happened very rarely on the baren forum and we wish it had not happend at all. Wanda (our faithful moderator) will verify this, she is too busy making woodblocks to read all of baren before the fact.

About the council:
The council is a group of about 8 volunteers who have been very active on baren over the last 5 years. People do come and go from the council so if you have a burning desire to help on the behind the scenes working of the list, let us know. You can send an email to anyone on the council and we will be glad of your help. Go to www.barenforum.org and on the right side of the opening page there is a spot to "contact baren". Click on your favorite it will get to the council, in case you are not sure who we all are.

There is the newsletter, the calendar project (if we do this again), general website stuff and lots of updating that can happen on the site that we do not seem to have time to do. The "who is baren" page needs help, but does take a lot of volunteer time. The mall is my own spot and does take lots and lots of hours. But the choice seems to do it or have it go away....so for me it is an easy dicision. I would hate for it to just go away. All of us should be very proud of this site and list. It seems to be truly unique in how well it runs and the enormous amount of free information it provides to the world.

Margaret,
Your ideas are good. I agree that the reasons I am involved with the baren are strictly for process help and friendship with other artists, not any political agendas. Artists, being people, are always up in arms over something and rightly so, but it should not be on this list. There are many lists for activism, even baren after-5 is an appropriate venue.

We can take a vote as we have in the past and if enough people want a political exchange I am sure we will eventually have one. It is a part of our lives so invokes strong artistic imagery. If people do not want to be involved, they will not sign up, or not vote for it in the first place. Being a democratic forum, this will sort itself out.

Sharri,
Good post and I too hope we can have information on the list, although sending someone to another site to read it would be one way to keep eveyone happy. After all we all need info, we are people as well as artists and the world is getting a lot smaller thanks to the internet. I am amazed daily at the good things as well as the bad that we now know about that we did not before we had a computer and a google search engine.

Lets take all political "discussion" to after-5 and everyone will be happy. Those who want to stomp their feet and those that want to just make woodblocks.
Best to all,
Barbara

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Message 4
From: Wanda Robertson
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:22:06 -0700
Subject: [Baren 25428] Re:after 5
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Hmm... I'll go sign you up.

Wanda
barenforum moderator

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Message 5
From: Cate Pfeifer
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 14:45:44 -0500
Subject: [Baren 25429] Focus on Freedoms
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Hi Printer Friends,

Some of you might remember me from occasional messages in years past. My
life has changed and I have reverted to lurker status. Yet, I still get a
real kick out of reading this forum. Thank you for being here.

Let me start with an apology to those I owe past "year of the animal"
prints. It was many years ago since I signed up, back in the late Jurassic
Period. I think they were Year of the Stegosaurus and Year of the
Pterodactyl but I can't remember. I stopped printing due to difficult life
circumstances and don't see things changing for at least 2 years. Again, I
am sorry.

I am going to take a roundabout way to get on topic so please bear with me.
I am an assistant professor of journalism and mass communication. Whenever
political discussions erupt in my classroom (and, believe me, it happens
often with journalism students), I steer the conversation to ideological
freedoms rather than differences. That is what I would like to contribute
here.

Why not do an exchange on 5 First Amendment freedoms? For those not in the
U.S., you can connect it up to how your country/nation expressions speech,
religion, press, right of assembly and redress of grievances.

For those who have not recently memorized the First Amendment of the U.S.
Constitution for class, it reads:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the government for a redress of grievances."

How about celebrating the freedom to have different view points rather than
disagreeing with each other?

You could also open the topic up even further and do it on the whole Bill of
Rights or even the "the blessings of liberty" (from the preamble).

Sharri, a First Amendment exchange would also give you the freedom to do a
print on Religion if you want.

Happy 4th, belated Canada Day, belated Cinco de Mayo, early Bastille Day and
every other national holiday.

Just a thought,

Cate

P.S. Marilynn, I would miss your voice if you left.

P.S.S. Mark Twain said "Everyone talks about the weather but no one does
anything about it." I lose track... Have you already done an exchange on
weather?

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Message 6
From: Wanda Robertson
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:57:28 -0700
Subject: [Baren 25430] Re: political print exchange
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Nope, no monitoring (vet? for veto?) going on here. Flagged? You must
be joking (or paranoid). I consider all of you to be reasonable adults
& I would expect you to use your discretion in any discussions on any
subject. And I do mean "discussions" - not ranting or rabble-rousing.
If you want to argue or poke fun at your fellow bareners - go to
after5. You can sign up at http://barenforum.org Remember, it's known
as "the bar" so watch your back! Ha!

Wanda
barenforum moderator

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Message 7
From: "Matt Laine"
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:24:51 -0400
Subject: [Baren 25431] exchange #20
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Daryl,
My prints for #20 Came yesterday.
Thank you for all that work coordinating the exchange. Molto Grazie, Merci Biene and Danker.
And thank you for all the art I now have from you other 29.
Matt

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Message 8
From: michael schneider
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 00:43:37 +0200
Subject: [Baren 25432] Let´s get the broader picture
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Dear friends on Baren,

after my initial response to the ongoing discussion about "politics" I
kept quiet and was reading. The discussion does not seem to find a real
conclusion, therefor I decided to add some thoughts, to put the whole
thing in perspective.

Do not worry, this post will center on printmaking and nothing but
printmaking.

We all are somehow followers of Harunobo, who is the printmaking genius
who, together with the craftsmen that worked with him invented the
Japanese color wood block print. We do not only owe the process to him.
When he did the color prints, he did the prints as a commission for a
group of poets who where out to find a way to publish a calender. I am
sure that I repeat what all members of baren already know, but to get
the broader picture it might not be wrong to tell history again. As you
will recall, the shogunate at that time had a monopoly on the
publication of calenders. Calenders are, when you think it over and
imagine the time we are talking about a tool of enormous power and
control. Our idol Harunobo, by including secret hints, made it possibly
to publish a calender, break the monopole of the shogunate and by doing
that, give the control over the "time" back to the people. All of that
was done, while strict censorship was in place and every print had to be
approved by the censor before and edition could be made. Generations of
publishers and artists were pushing the limits to express critic and
their opinion, while having the censors watch them all the time. Many
printmakers paid for being too outspoken with their life.

We all admire the quality and beauty of the famous Japanese prints. But
do we look close enough to see what they really intended to tell. Was
the series " Manners of young women from three classes " not a way to
reveal the social differences, or was Utamaro only concerned with
producing nice prints? Have we lost the ability to look beyond the beauty?

Given a few exceptions, the history of Japanese woodblock print is a
history of fighting censorship and finding ways of free expression.
Don´t we have an obligation to honor this struggle, by at least
accepting in what kind of tradition we are working?

michael

Vienna / Austria

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Message 9
From: "John Furr"
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 20:37:10 -0400
Subject: [Baren 25433] RE: [Baren 25432] Let´s get the broader picture
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Michael,

Well put. Of all the posts of the last few days I found yours well worth
reading from a printmaking perspective. I have been so busy the past month
I have really only taken the most cursory looks at the posts as I deleted
them since they clearly haven't been about printmaking.

That doesn’t mean I don’t like political discussion. I sure do. I will even
tolerate it here, but mostly I want to learn something new about
printmaking. I am still learning about the history of Japanese prints and
the use of printmaking in the struggle against censorship, so your post made
for a nice read.

Thanks,
John Furr

p.s. my own political comment for the day... in the recently completed
Canadian federal election my side won! Yahoo, since the very next day I was
awarded the government contract I have been waiting months for, pretty good
outcome for an election eh?

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Message 10
From: "Carol Myers"
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:55:28 -0500
Subject: [Baren 25434] Re: exchange #20
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Daryl,
I met the mailman at the end of the driveway, I have these wonderful prints(#20 exchange) in my possession. Startled the mailman that I ran out to greet him!
I would also like to add my thanks for all of your work and time. Awesome. Thanks!
Carol L. Myers

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Message 11
From: "marilynn smih"
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 19:19:03 -0700
Subject: [Baren 25435] Re: political print exchange
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Okay, I did not want to talk for awhile. sherri, yes I am sensitive, no
apology needed. It is this that is disturbing me:
This forum is not for the USA, it is a world wide group.
We in the United States need to not push our problems or our politics to
everyone. This topic came about because of things that occurred in the USA.
We are not the only ones in this world and should stop pushing ourselves on
others.
I want very much to help this country in the times we are in. I would love
to do a political print, but not on this forum, because I see this problem
one that is for the United States and not the rest of the world. Although
what we do has profound affect on everyone and every part of the world has
poliltics.
I see this as an art group.
Yes I agree agout 911 and I did that one. And our neighbors world wide
closed their eyes and let us do it. It was a sad time.
Marilynn

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Message 12
From: "marilynn smih"
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:20:03 -0700
Subject: [Baren 25436] Re:after 5
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Oh my the ostrich is stretching and deciding to be verbal.
Baren discussions have been touchy and interesting and wow.
I still wonder about all our international folks and how they feel about a
political exchange????
I see my country in real trouble. Do we still have, OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE
PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE?
And what right does some one have to make it unsafe for me to walk any
street in any city anywhere IN MY COUNTRY?
I remember my father saying he saw a revolution coming, he died a few years
back.
I remember a friend, in his 70's who said to me just a few weeks ago that it
is up to me to do something as I was saying I am too old, I am a
grandmother. I want my life as it is, the golden years. I want to sit on
the beach and watch the sun set.
So you people have turned me upside down and yelled in my ear. YOU ARE AN
ARTIST. Meaning that I communicate more than a sunset to the world. And
remember it is the artists that open the eyes and speak out first.
I am thinking that I have a responsibility that I can not ignore.
I do not watch the news any more because it is depressing.
But the ostrich has to raise up.
Yes I am Pisces the fish that goes in two directions and is pulled around
with a hook, easily. So we will see.
Marilynn

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Message 13
From: b.patera # att.net
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 03:23:55 +0000
Subject: [Baren 25437] Re: LPE-II
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Thanks for posting.

Barbara P.


-------------- Original message from "Rudolf Stalder" : --------------
Large Print Exchange : LPE-II prints are up for view

http://www.rst-art.com/lpewebshowtemp.htm

Best to all

Rudolf

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