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Message 1
From: "Maria Arango"
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 07:38:39 -0800
Subject: [Baren 24118] RE: e-bay
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Ebay accounts get hijacked on a daily basis in order to perform fraud.
On the same note, credit card account numbers get hijacked (stolen) from
online transactions around 20 times more often, which means that (in
comparison) eBay has an excellent security record when compared to the
rest of the online world. Inactive accounts are the main target. Those
of us with active accounts receive weekly warnings from eBay regarding
our accounts and/or responding to fraudulent "confirmation" emails (from
PayPal too, incidentally). Online fraud is everywhere, but credit card
fraud off line still beats credit card fraud online by around 12 to 1.
The easiest/most frequently used way to get bulk credit card numbers
(with ss#'s) is to pose as a realtor and ask for credit reports _from
the credit reporting agencies themselves_ on folks like you and me with
the pretense of checking credit for an impending real estate
transaction. All you need is a fax number and a P.O. Box. I speak from
unfortunate experience; online purchasing is the least of our worries,
according to our friends in the FBI.

Having said that, you are absolutely right, eBay tends to be sluggish in
responding to such things; they simply don't know how to (want to)
handle fraud and have little or no legal recourse. Here is a good
website to file a complaint: http://www1.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp

On a happier note, eBay for artists is getting better and better. I was
recently a participant in a discussion to further separate the wheat
from the chaff in the "print" category (you can buy shoes there! :-).
Ebay is planning some additional Item Specifics to further define
"original" art.

Happy eBaying!
Maria, eBayer for 5 years without incident (knock on my nearest cherry
block)

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Message 2
From: Mike Lyon
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:16:29 -0600
Subject: [Baren 24119] Re: Active Bareners
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Margaret Szvetecz wrote:
>the Baren listserve should be for as much for people who post infrequently
>and maintain personal privacy as it is for Bareners who create a more
>outgoing online presence.

Right on, Margaret (IMHO)!


Mike Lyon
http://mlyon.com

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Message 3
From: baren_member # barenforum.org
Date: 5 Feb 2004 16:30:47 -0000
Subject: [Baren 24120] Lurkers....unite!

Message posted from: Monica Bright

Okay, okay! My name is Monica Bright. I live in Boise Idaho and I've been a lurker for quite some time. Yes, yes,it is true...Here goes a little background info. I recieved my BFA from Utah State University in '98. This is my fifth year teaching art full time to a bunch of rambunctious junior high students (I'm finally going up to the high school next year... Hooray for me!), and I try to sell my wares in at the fairs in the summer. Some years are better than others, but hey, that's how things are. I absoulutely adore Baren. Not only is it my only contact with other printmakers, but it also motivates me to keep working. Who knows, I may even be brave enough soon to try hanga. And although ya'll don't know me, I feel like I know you.

-Monica

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Message 4
From: "Daniel Dew"
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:55:52 -0500
Subject: [Baren 24121] Re: Active Bareners
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Sorry, feel the need to add my two cents worth.
I seem to feel that the original post from Sharri(?) was regarding
The fact that these exchanges are highly coveted and spots are being
taken up with those who are not participating (signing up for an
exchange and then dropping out).
Her initial question was: How do we stop "unknown" (haven't
participated before, no information on them (i.e. confirmation), etc...)
from signing up for exchanges, then dropping out.

I am part of a few smaller Irish Dance Groups. To participate in any of
their "upper level" activities (buy, sell, post images, etc.)you have to
be approved by the moderator. Otherwise, you can post messages, enjoy
digests, submit pictures, etc... But if you have been confirmed by the
moderator, then all is O.K.

Let people lurk, let them post, let them do anything they want, let's
just have some sort of vetting process for allowing them to enter
exchanges, that's all.

My humble opinion.

Daniel L. Dew
Ervin Leasing Company
Suncoast Division

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Message 5
From: Barbara Mason
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:10:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 24122] Re: Active Bareners
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Dan,
This would be hard to do, but maybe we can have a time limit, say you have to have received the baren messages for a month...it seems a shame to punish some new person who might enthusiastically do their first exchange because we have had a problem with a few bad apples. I think this is why we have the waiting list...those on the list should make prints in case they get in, or at least carve the blocks. If someone drops out at the last minute or is not reachable, we do bar them from exchanges for quite a while. Although this is after the fact, I would rather give folks the benifit of the doubt. I know when I found baren and did my first exchange (#2) I was pretty excited and sure would have hated to have to wait to be approved....Wanda is moderator of the list so it would be a big responsibility for her to approve people and Mike is coordinator of exchanges. I think recently Mike has asked someone to take a sabatical for 6 months or so for dropping out at the last minute.
This is a tough thing but maybe someone else has a suggestion on how to handle it. There were only two names on the signup for the shunga exchange I did not recognize, so although some "unknown" people may not post they have bought stuff from the mall. I think that gives folks credability in itself if they are supporting baren by buying product through us..
Best to all,
Barbara

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Message 6
From: Wanda
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:26:45 -0800
Subject: [Baren 24123] Re: Active Bareners
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Hi Margaret,

Well said! And you certainly aren't considered a "sub-active" member of
Baren. There are no required posts to Baren. Although, we would like to
see introductions from new members & an occasional post to keep in touch. I
think the main concern about "active" members vs. "non-active" members comes
into being when someone who is subscribed to Baren joins an exchange and
then disappears. In several exchanges, this has been a real problem.
Several of these members are still on the Baren subscription list - but we
haven't heard a peep out of them and we have eager members on the 'wait
list' for exchange 19. It makes an unhappy situation for members who wish
to participate - and for the co-ordinator who has no way of knowing if the
silent members are going to send their prints or not.

I hope this explains some of the problems we are dealing with. And if any
of these people who signed up for exchange #19 would just contact John
Center or Mike Lyon or anyone on Baren - then we would be able to resolve
the problems at once. We are being left in limbo as we don't know if they
are participating in the exchange or not.

I hope this makes sense - yes, it's a sort of party, but we'd like everyone
to come on in and make themselves at home!

Wanda

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Message 7
From: JMartin906 # aol.com
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:02:58 EST
Subject: [Baren 24124] late lurkers
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Well, here are my 2 cents about the people whose names aren't known -- who
haven't sent in their prints. It's not only the lurkers who are late sending in
their prints.

If the time period for making the prints isn't long enough, maybe it should
be changed. If people don't have time to make the prints, they shouldn't sign
up, or they should gracefully drop out so someone on the waiting list can take
their place.

I really enjoyed the exchange I was in that worked like it said it was going
to. I thought being in 18a was pretty frustrating. I haven't signed up for
another exchange. It's not interesting or educational to read posts where the
coordinator is pleading with exchange participants to send their prints or at
least tell him/her what is going on.

Suzi

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Message 8
From: Emma Jane Hogbin
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:08:22 -0500
Subject: [Baren 24125] Re: late lurkers
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JMartin906@aol.com wrote:
> If the time period for making the prints isn't long enough, maybe it
> should be changed. If people don't have time to make the prints, they
> shouldn't sign up, or they should gracefully drop out so someone on
> the waiting list can take their place.

My /guess/ is that the time period is too long if anything. Based on my
experiences as a teacher I know that regardless of how much time I give a
student to do an assignment, they will wait until x amount of time before
the assignment is due to start working on the assignment.

My guess is that exchange participants fall into the same trap. They sign
up when they have free time, think they have /months/ to complete their
prints and so wait before starting. Suddenly it's months later and they
no longer have the free time they'd had when they signed up.

For what it's worth I run into the same problem with authors in a
documentation project that I volunteer for. The longer, and looser the
deadlines, the less likely the author will finish their document and
submit it to us. Either it's finished within a couple of weeks (to a
maximum of a month), or it never shows up. Of course there are a few
exceptions, but that's been my experience.

emma

--
Emma Jane Hogbin
[[ 416 417 2868 ][ www.xtrinsic.com ]]

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Message 9
From: eli griggs
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:16:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 24126] Re: Active Bareners
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Hi there:

I consider the open nature of Baren to be of great
value.

Embracing printmakers of any skill level, our
‘membership’ requires nothing more than desire to
listen to the many voices that is Baren.

Sharing, in the form of postings and print exchanges
often comes latter, when a member, feels that the time
is right for them to step forward and announce their
presence to the Baren atelier.

It is in that moment of declaration, commonly in the
form of a simple introduction, that a member becomes
‘active’.

The hope of the group is that this new voice will
contribute, by way of postings, to the dynamic of our
online and continuing discussion of all things
woodcut, and perhaps participate in the form of actual
printmaking, thru exchanges, Swap-Shop, Baren-Suji,
etc.

Let us continue the practice of accepting new
participants into our exchanges, on the honor system,
as in the past and hope that the number of
non-communicative dropouts recently experienced was
simply a statical fluke.

I would never make light of the very real
disappointments of those members who suffer a
shortfall in prints received, but I believe the
following.

There will likely always be a risk of late dropouts
and tardy prints in our exchanges, ( I am certainly in
that rather large group) but it seems to me that Baren
continues to flourish.

What we gain as an open community of printmakers, in
the long run, in the way of fresh artistic vision,
contagious curiosity and an ever widening sense of
fellowship, vastly outweighs the peril of the
occasional exchange numbering less than 31 prints.

Regards,
Eli






__________________________________

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Message 10
From: Barbara Mason
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:41:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 24127] Re: Active Bareners
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Eli,
Very well said,
Thank you,
Barbara

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Message 11
From: Brian
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:06:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 24128] Re: late lurkers
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> My guess is that exchange participants fall into the
> same trap. They sign
> up when they have free time, think they have
> /months/ to complete their
> prints and so wait before starting. Suddenly it's
> months later and they
> no longer have the free time they'd had when they
> signed up.

Yes, I fall into this trap... with a little different
twist to it. I sign up knowing I don't have the time
right now but projecting ahead that I will in the next
month or second month and attempt to plan around that.
Of course the planning doesn't ever work out as
expected and I am rushed. I don't think longer is a
good idea... but shorter? I'd never sign up if I had
to schedule an exchange print into this month! Okay,
maybe I could do it next month and we could shorten
the period to two months... :-)

I am glad that the forum has attempted to address the
late delivery problem, however. It really frustrated
me to bend over backwards to get a print done on time
and then have other members not do the same.

Anyhow, I've been less active and more lurking for a
while now... somehow buying a 100 year old house
became a bit of a distraction from my printmaking. I
feel that I am doing some interesting new work now,
however, and hope to show it off sometime soonish. I
would hate to feel that I was no longer a member in
good standing because I had to fade out for a while.

At least the discussion about lurkers got a few of us
back out of the closet though!

Cheers!

- Brian -




__________________________________

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Message 12
From: "Daniel Dew"
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:28:10 -0500
Subject: [Baren 24129] Re: late lurkers
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Sorry to chime in twice in one day, but to make my point once again.

Lurkers welcome! Non-participants welcome! New to exchanges, you're
welcome also! Never posters, welcome too! Too frequent posters, you're
welcome also! Ugly, thin, old or new, come one, come all!

But if you sign up for an exchange (commitment), and this is the first
time for you to participate in a Baren exchange, you should have to
provide the coordinator with something to prove you are "real". Phone
number?

This is coming from a three time coordinator, I would rather spend the
time confirming a participant than chasing a "ghost" participant.


Daniel L. Dew
Ervin Leasing Company
Suncoast Division

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Message 13
From: ArtfulCarol # aol.com
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:43:58 EST
Subject: [Baren 24130] Active?
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For those who didnt realize it--

From our Baren guidelines:

"Participants must be active [Baren] members and must have participated in
discussions prior to signing up for an exchange. It is essential that the
coordinator be in communication with the exchange participants"

As always,
Carol L

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Message 14
From: Sharri LaPierre
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:35:57 -0800
Subject: [Baren 24131] Re: (no subject)
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Re: from John
FurryPress

Hooray! My shungas went out in the priority mail this morning and are
shuffling off to Chicago. They are flapping their little pages
furiously as we speak. They will be landing in a couple of days so
keep the landing pad clear - they are coming at amazing speed.

For what it is worth: I think Carol L. is right on. If someone is not
subscribed to the list, and do not remain subscribed during the quarter
that the exchange is active, they should not be allowed to participate
in the exchange. We wait-listers can be caught really off guard, as I
was. The ideas were still running around loose in my head, but nothing
even half way successful had found its way onto paper even. I had to
work like a wild tornado to get these things done in three weeks. The
next time I go on a wait list, even if I'm number 30 on the list, I
will go ahead and get the blocks ready to print. Lesson learned the
difficult way. Fellow Bareners be forewarned :-)

Cheers,
Sharri

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Message 15
From: Charles Morgan
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:35:54 -0800
Subject: [Baren 24132] Re: Active Bareners
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you wrote:
>What we gain as an open community of printmakers, in
>the long run, in the way of fresh artistic vision,
>contagious curiosity and an ever widening sense of
>fellowship, vastly outweighs the peril of the
>occasional exchange numbering less than 31 prints.

Well said.

Cheers ..... Charles

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Message 16
From: "Joseph Sheridan"
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:44:17 -0500
Subject: [Baren 24133] Re: Active Bareners
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I think lurkers should be welcome.
I do not post on a regular basis and I don't feel I should post if I have no opinion on a current topic.

In regard to the exchanges, perhaps the coordinator should have the power to request:

A conformation email at time of sign up
A second contact halfway through the time period
And a third check in one month out with their colophon information.

If the exchange coordinator has not heard from someone at the halfway mark of the exchange period, then the coordinator should be empowered to delete that person from the exchange and then contact the next person on the waiting list. Make it a cut an dry system where we all know the rules.

The deadlines should not drive the coordinators to frustration.

Joe Sheridan

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End of [Baren] Digest