Baren Digest Tuesday, 25 June 2002 Volume 19 : Number 1875 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cucamongie@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:21:54 EDT Subject: [Baren 18448] Frankenthaler's prints, etc Hi folks, April and I also took a class with Yasu Shibata, who is a very good teacher and very pleasant person. It was very funny when he did a printing demonstration - he's such a low-key, humble person that he would say, well you just do this, then you just do this, etc, as though printing is no big deal, calmly demonstrating and of course out of this quiet little demonstration came an absolutely perfect print. He had some interesting and different ways of doing things in hanga that I found quite useful, and I feel fortunate to have studied with him. Sarah ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:10:26 EDT Subject: [Baren 18449] Re: Helen Frankenthaler I personally like artist created prints better than some of the master printer stuff some of the master printer prints seem so cold and lifeless like having two feet of pristine paper is more important that the art work it self. That does not mean I don't try to do as complex a piece as I can, Just that printing a 8 by 10 in misotint or exchanging on a full sheet of paper just does not make much sense to me ESP when you look at a Rembrant of Durer that is trimmed to the plate mark. One of the reasons I think they like to print it on a full sheet of paper is that only they have a press big enough to print a full sheet of paper almost no artist has a press that large. I would love to learn some of the printers tricks but a lot of it leaves me cold. On large printing projects I am currently working on a block book of 100 pages of text and at least 50 multi color illustrations the wood alone will cost me more than 2,000 dollars not to mention the time and paper. I have been working on it for 19 months and will work at least another year at least, that is just the cutting of the blocks maybe longer who knows it seems to have a life of its own. And the printing will take a long time as well. This project is a Passover haggadot two pages of which are in my show. I feel wood cuts are taught poorly in collage mostly taught by litho and etchers who don't really know how to do it. The tell people to use the wrong wood and the wrong tools I remember being told to use pine and plywood the two worst woods to use and no wonder it is becoming a lost process in school. I prefer to use maple, cherry or pear none of which are suggested in school. Pear was used by Durer and cherry is the closest wood we have to what is used in Japan but I prefer maple myself because it does not splinter and can give you great detail. I just cut a wood cut on a 14" wide piece of hard maple and it was not warped eater. The wood of the gods lol. one of these days I want to do a really large wood cut and do it without using plywood. Clamps glue and plankgrain wood more than likely maple currently working on a 12 by 30" piece of corian which I extend to print both as an intaglio and as a relief print maybe both at the same time. good day friends john of the furry press aka John Center ------------------------------ From: "April Vollmer" Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:25:20 -0400 Subject: [Baren 18450] Fame and Money Janet and Myron, it's nice to hear someone talk about the most famous Japanese woodcuts being made now. I find the Frankenthaller prints to lack some personal element, though they are quite beautiful. Frankenthaller has a great sense of color and design, and Yasu is a sensitive interpreter and a fine craftsman. I just don't find the prints as exciting as work where I can see an artist struggle with technique to get at an idea. It always surprises me that there isn't more distinction between 'artist-made' versus 'collaborative' prints. Anyway, I thank all of you who read my interview at World Printmakers. If you want to see some non-print related images I just put up a web page of my trip to Italy at www.aprilvollmer.com/italia Perhaps some will end up in my prints eventually! April ------------------------------ From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:23:38 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18451] wood John, That was truly inspiring, your long term projects and your love of maple wood. Makes me blush to think what a slacker I am! The carving is truly the hard part for me, arthritis and just plain poor skills. I got a little lesson from Wanda this spring and realized it was not necessary to carve the darn block to China. So guess I was working too hard. I just ordered Shina plywood for my next set, I know you purists like the solid wood. I carved on poplar for the 10 people 10 colors exchange and really did like carving solid wood, but in the end the blocks warped. Not a lot, but enough that they look funny. I think they are still printable, though. Again, thanks for the inspiration. I am off to think about #14 and then to read more about Hanga. Even with my two classes I have a LOT to learn. I am going to teach a beginning class this fall....isn't that the best way to force learning???? Barbara ------------------------------ From: "PHARE-CAMP,PATTI (HP-USA,ex1)" Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:17:57 -0400 Subject: [Baren 18452] RE: Baren Digest V19 #1871 Emperor can afford to buy clothes!, Tales of Genji... Thanks Julio for the web sites with more info on the artist. Though I like the looks of Cedar Hill, when I look at more of her work I see that some pieces are WOW but most are really boring. And the history of the works, well this is a quirky issue with me, I tend to get real opinionated about artists taking artistic credit for prints they didn't execute. I question those who would take full credit for a collaborative work and I've always questioned the value of "limited" editions serigraphs numbered in the thousands. At what point does a fine art print become a commercial art poster. I live here in Sacramento California where many of the "Royal Chicano Air force" live and show their works. These men drafted and crafted their own posters for political rallies, community events and concerts. The works are awesome and the trend in overpriced "Offset Fine Art Prints" offsets the hisorical value of true art works like these. Works by disciplined artists who took the time to learn their craft, because craft is what makes a work of art, are far more valuable historically and artistically. Anyone can conceive of an idea, but a master's hand goes beyond conception! Remember, a work of art can be copyrighted, an idea cannot. Patti Phare-Camp ------------------------------ From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:55:30 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18453] Re: Fame and Money April, These were great, thanks for sharing them. Barbara non-print related images I just put up a web page of my trip to Italy at www.aprilvollmer.com/italia Perhaps some will end up in my prints eventually! April ------------------------------ From: Sharri LaPierre Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:11:16 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18454] Re: Baren Digest V19 #1874 In response to the Frankenthaler issue of whether her prints differ from reproductions, I would say - absolutely. They were created from blocks and "intended to exist in multiple" as opposed to, say - the painter of light who does paintings (intended originally to exist as ONE), and has them photo lithographed into what he calls "fine art prints". If you are going to turn your nose up at her prints because she works with a Master Printer then you have to turn your nose up at Durer and every one else who printed before and during that time - they all submitted their drawings to the carvers who then carved the blocks and someone else who printed them. There was a very definite division of labor within the guilds of that time which continued right up to the middle of the 19th century. Print works done exclusively by the artist from start to finish is really a 20th century phenomenen and the reason many printmakers who do all their own work sign IMP after their names,which tells the world that they alone are responsible for this marvelous print. You really have to see the Frankenthalers in person to appreciate them, and you have to have an aesthetic for contemporary abstract and color field work. Her work is all about texture and color - not about a narrative. They are very much like Rothko paintings which have to be experienced in person, also. Part of their value, aesthetically and monetarily, is their monumentality. If they ever come within driving distance of your location be sure to see them:-) Sharri LaPierre ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:44:31 EDT Subject: [Baren 18455] Re: Baren Digest V19 #1874 sorry to post twice in one day but i would like to raise a point of contention. There is a debate wether Durers hand meet to wood in his wood cuts. He did apprntice in wood block printing and book arts. Theres is no debate about him cutting his metal engravings, and because his wood cuts are so much above the norm for his time period and more importantly there were NO GUILDS IN NURINBERG to have prevented him from doing so. Because of political activity the guilds were outlawed in nurenberg 100 years earlier. In Durers earlier work there is clearly more than one hand involved in the cutting and i contend one of those may have been Durers there is an excitement in the early work that is not present in later work esp done for emp. maximilion were a formschinder clearly did the work. john of the furry press ------------------------------ From: slinders@attbi.com Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:36:12 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18456] 93'f. -and it's Christmas in Chicago! The Large Print Exchange has arrived here! It is magnificent in scale and in beauty! What an encouragement to try to work larger! Each print is my favorite! Thanks to each of you for such lovely prints, and special thanks to Rudolf who gave so much to this innovative, challenging exchange! Sharen ------------------------------ From: Myron Turner Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:37:54 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18457] Re: Baren Digest V19 #1874 I assume you are taking issue with my post on Frankenthaler. To begin with, I went to see the Frankenthaler show twice while I was in Connecticut, and I indicate that I've seen it more than once in my very first sentence. And so I have "really" seen them "in person." In the same vein, I didn't say what else you are attributing to me, that the Frankenthalers are not prints and that there's not a tradition of printmakers working with master printers. What I did say is that her prints raise some interesting questions about aspects of that tradition. (As for Rothkos, I've seen many of them and have spent very rich contemplative hours with them. Truthfully, I don't feel as strongly about them today, not because I've been unable to respond to them, but because we all undergo change, even with regard to things we've loved.) Myron Turner At 12:11 PM 24/06/2002 -0700, you wrote: >In response to the Frankenthaler issue of whether her prints differ from >reproductions, I would say - absolutely. They were created from blocks and >"intended to exist in multiple" as opposed to, say - the painter of light >who does paintings (intended originally to exist as ONE), and has them >photo lithographed into what he calls "fine art prints". If you are going >to turn your nose up at her prints because she works with a Master Printer >then you have to turn your nose up at Durer and every one else who >printed before and during that time - they all submitted their drawings >to the carvers who then carved the blocks and someone else who printed >them. There was a very definite division of labor within the guilds of >that time which continued right up to the middle of the 19th >century. Print works done exclusively by the artist from start to finish >is really a 20th century phenomenen and the reason many printmakers who do >all their own work sign IMP after their names,which tells the world that >they alone are responsible for this marvelous print. > >You really have to see the Frankenthalers in person to appreciate them, >and you have to have an aesthetic for contemporary abstract and color >field work. Her work is all about texture and color - not about a >narrative. They are very much like Rothko paintings which have to be >experienced in person, also. Part of their value, aesthetically and >monetarily, is their monumentality. If they ever come within driving >distance of your location be sure to see them:-) > >Sharri LaPierre > ------------------------------ From: Charles Morgan Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:40:42 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18458] Re: Helen Frankenthaler Are you talking about that really hard stuff used for counter tops ??? If so, what tools are you using to carve it? Cheers ...... Charles At 11:10 AM 6/24/02 -0400, you wrote: >currently working on a 12 by 30" piece of corian which I extend to print both >as an intaglio and as a relief print maybe both at the same time. > >good day friends >john of the furry press >aka >John Center ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:27:22 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18459] plug for Bill Ritchie Hello all, Back from the art festival from hell (quite literally, as we were less than 100 miles from the Arizona fires in Western US). Needless to say this was not one of those times when I'm going to recommend art festivals as a successful venue for selling your woodcuts. Camping in beautiful places, yes, and watching wildlife also, but the 'buying' concept seem to elude the few dog-walkers that appeared occasionally. Anyhow, one of the highlights of this trip was a little companion I took with me to help kill those "extra" minutes of down time while sipping coffee and watching jackrabbits eat Chex cereal at day break. The companion in question was none other than Bill Ritchie's "The Art of Selling Art: Between Production and Livelihood," a book that came up a while ago in the context of the thread on selling our wares. Wonderful little book! I have not finished it quite yet, but it enthralled me like an action novel--wait, I don't read action novels. Anyway, great reading, the book feels like carrying a conversation with Professor Ritchie himself about many of the things that run through my artist mind on a daily basis. I learned much and certainly will apply many of the principles to real life. A wealth of info in there, even if selling art is not in your mind at the moment, with sharp tips on advancing your art career in a variety of ways. Even after studying so many angles on selling art, Bill's insightful and creative ideas sprouted new possibilities as I read. Great attitude, great book; Bill, thanks. Maria P.S. The book is out of print but I picked it up by going on the Amazon "wait list", that is, you can pre-set your spending limit and wait until some tiny little book store out there finds the treasure on a dusty shelf. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango Las Vegas, Nevada, USA http://www.1000woodcuts.com maria@mariarango.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 00:55:45 EDT Subject: [Baren 18460] Re: Helen Frankenthaler ENGRAVING TOOLS AND DREMAL WORK WITH CORIAN MUCH LIKE WOOD ENGRAVING JOHN ------------------------------ From: "Cathryn BACKER" Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:59:04 +0800 Subject: [Baren 18461] Re: Helen Frankenthaler Hi John, Can you tell me; what is CORIAN? What is it usually used for? Cheers Cathryn Tom Price West Australia. "> ENGRAVING TOOLS AND DREMAL WORK WITH CORIAN MUCH LIKE WOOD ENGRAVING > > JOHN" ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:28:08 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18462] Corian Corian is a Dupont product name for a synthetic stone material. Here is what www.corian.com will tell you: "DuPont created the solid surface category more than 30 years ago. An advanced blend of natural materials and pure acrylic polymer, Corian� is a brand that has earned trust and respect as a proven material that brings design versatility, long-term performance and value to any environment." You can search the web for Corian and buy small pieces (usually disguised as cutting boards) from a variety of suppliers. Better yet, find your local Corian distributor and ask them to save you scraps. Corian is perfect for engraving with standard engraving tools or, like John said, the Dremmel rotary tool. I use dental drills and you can literally draw with it. Since it is so hard and smooth, it won't take a "stain" so you can see what you are doing as you engrave. I approach this problem by spraying the surface with either black or white enamel spray paint. Then I just draw with a white charcoal pencil on the darkened surface. I'd like to know what you do, John. Several characteristics of Corian versus end-grain maple or even Resingrave (an engraving resin material) are: - -Everything will show, even the tiniest dots and scrapes - -It gives up ink very easily so less ink is necessary - -It wipes completely clean leaving a white block as when you started (doesn't stain like wood) - -It holds the finest of lines, similar to boxwood but cheaper and free if you can find a local distributor - -You can get it in huge sheets, although I'm not as brave as John and haven't attempted anything large yet Anyway, it's fun to play with and a new material to try out on a rainy day. Maria <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango Las Vegas, Nevada, USA http://www.1000woodcuts.com maria@mariarango.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:36:03 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18463] Re: Helen Frankenthaler Myron, I don't think that Sharri was quoting your post when she was mentioning the Frankenthaler prints. Someone else had said something about not liking the idea of her having a printer/collaborator. Can't remember who - but not you. Remember when answering or commenting on a previous post - include a couple of lines of that post (not the whole thing) just to remind us where we were in the discussion. I find this thread truly fascinating, there is a lot to think about with this subject. As a mostly (well, completely) representative image maker rather than an abstract image maker - I must admit that I truly *loved* the woodblock print "Cedar Hill". I haven't seen it in person - nor have I seen any of her work in person. But, I certainly will if I get a chance! We are all free to like or dislike whatever we wish - but let's not be afraid to discuss it! Wanda ------------------------------ From: Greg Carter Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 02:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Baren 18464] Re: What is Baren What is Baren. Though I have been a member of the list serve for a couple of years, I am not totally sure what the answer is. I thought it was an open organization that was devoted to the promotion of relief printing and specifically Hanga. I say open because the group has a very unique mix of members and I thought the dynamic was so alive, it was much more than just web chatter. As the group grew and developed leadership, I sensed that the time was coming when it would become as dynamic in the real world as it was in the virtual. With the advent of an upcoming conference, I was really excited that the group might leave behind some of the distracting things I sometimes read on the list serve and really fulfill its mission in a new way. I do not know why it hit me so hard but this really struck me as odd Only Baren Forum members in good standing may register and/or attend. Perhaps you and Marnie would like to visit Kansas City some other time? This really makes Baren sound like a social club for the few and not an open organization whose main focus is on the printmaking. I have been around enough to know why Graham is banned from the list serve and have no problems with it, but a conference is different than a list serve. I really do support Baren and think there is so much potential for Baren outside of the virtual world but I think it is very important to weight the overall goals of the organization to the personal dynamics of its membership. Greg Carter ------------------------------ From: "Cathryn BACKER" Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:23:37 +0800 Subject: [Baren 18465] Corian Hi Maria, Thankyou for the webpage on Corian. Was still a bit lost until I realized that Corian is actually called Laminex here in Australia. Made by the same people just distributed and sold under a different name. Whew! Thought I had lost the plot totally! I will visit the local cabinet making firm and check out their waste bins for thrown out pieces. Cheers Cathryn Backer Tom Price, West Australia. ------------------------------ From: Myron Turner Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 07:57:39 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18466] Re: Helen Frankenthaler Wanda, Thanks for your note. I had been following the Frankenthaler discussion but may have missed something, since I was in transit for a day. Myron At 10:36 PM 24/06/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Myron, I don't think that Sharri was quoting your post when she was mentioning >the Frankenthaler prints. Someone else had said something about not liking the >idea of her having a printer/collaborator. Can't remember who - but not you. > >Remember when answering or commenting on a previous post - include a couple of >lines of that post (not the whole thing) just to remind us where we were >in the >discussion. > >Wanda ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V19 #1875 *****************************