Baren Digest Monday, 10 June 2002 Volume 19 : Number 1856 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Lyon Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 20:38:48 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18269] Re:some hanga printing problems Dear Carole (and all), Forgive me if I am repeating someone else's earlier reply, but I just got back from a weekend trip and had about a zillion and forty-seven messages and didn't see any replies (yet) to this one... Your materials seem fine and aren't the problem. Your main problem is that everything is TOO WET !! I imagine your paper is too wet to begin with and you are using WAY too much water on the block. The Yamaguchi Hosho paper (delightfully!) does vary from sheet to sheet, and the reason you have less problems with the thicker sheets is because they can hold more water -- hanga printing is somewhat "non-intuitive" when it comes to water, I think. We all feel that since it is water color, and since other inks need to go on thick in order to cover the paper, that we need a lot of wet pigment with hanga, too... But that's just not the way it works! Think of pressing very thin but powerful dye from the slightly damper block into the slightly less damp paper and you will be closer to the truth. Experiment to see how dry you can get it. Bleeding: 1) the block is too wet... surely too much water/pigment on the block (and the block is probably water-logged, too -- you'll get bleeding in this case even if the paper is BONE DRY! 2) the paper is unsized or insufficiently sized -- I doubt that's the problem with the Yamaguchi paper! Paper dampness: hanga is different that other printing -- the paper is only damp enough to allow it to relax -- feels somewhat dry, but cool to the touch, and doesn't curl up when placed on the inked block. The curl happens when the middle of the paper expands as it picks up moisture from the block, but other areas, especially the edges, are dry and can't expand. Your non-plywood wood blocks have the same tendency -- the wet side expands and the board curls or warps with the dry side concave. Dampening paper -- when you apply water with the brush, the brush isn't "loaded" with water and it isn't used like a "brush", but more like tiny damp twigs which BARELY touch the paper, leaving seperate little trails of damp which spread out over time so that the whole paper is more "humid" than "damp". The newsprint (some use blotter, I hear) acts as a "buffer" so that the overall dampness of the stack doesn't change rapidly and stays even throughout. When I dampen paper (and this varies with the thickness, but for the Yamaguchi Hosho you are using, I use a plant mister and use one or two half-squeezes over every other sheet -- then stack them up in lightly dampened newsprint folded over -- about 4 to 8 sheets -- in a plastic garbage bag overnight. The next morning when I begin printing, the paper feels "TOO DRY" (but it's not!) and only a little cool on my cheek -- humid, NOT DAMP !! If the paper seems to be getting damper during printing (which it WILL!), then I discipline myself to be patient and I just pack everything up in the garbage bag again and let it sit a couple hours to overnight. If you are printing 100 sheets, then you needn't wait -- by the time you finish one pass, the first sheets printed will likely be ready. But for 8 or 10 sheets, you will have to pace your printing so the block which covers the top half is followed by the block which prints the bottom half, etc. so the moisture is being applied more or less evenly -- and you will still have to frequently wait for the moisture to migrate through the sheet before continuing. Block dampness: the block is dampened only so it won't dry out in the half a minute or so between one print and another. Water is added, but ONLY enough to carry the pigment -- figure that whatever you put on the block goes into the paper -- it should appear matte on the surface of the block, not glossy or wet !! It will seem to be much too dry to print, but print it will! If more color density is desired, several subsequent printings of the same area should be repeated. DON'T allow the paper to become unevenly damp! If it is curling you can brush a minute amount of water onto the edges of the back of the sheet, or better... Put the paper stack away and allow it to relax a few hours so the moisture can migrate throughout each sheet. Plan your printing so that different areas are printed in each pass - -- not the same part of the sheet again and again. Paste allows more body to the ink -- the pigment is dispersed more evenly through a thicker film and drying is slowed. Moisture consideration is the same. Goma-zuri (grainy pigment spots and visible wood grain are reduced as paste is added) OH... a "bleed" print is one in which the ink extends all the way to or past the edge of the sheet -- it is an offset-lithography term, I believe. A non-bleed print has unprinted borders on the sheet. A bleed print is printed right over the edge of the sheet (or is trimmed later through the inked portions). Hope this helps get you going again? Mike ------------------------------ From: "Tyrus Clutter" Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:45:27 -0600 Subject: [Baren 18270] Mold Ok friends, I know this was discussed before but as I had never had any trouble before I didn't remember what was said. Let's just say someone would leave paper dampened in a plastic bag for way too long (I'm not going to reveal my stupidity here) and their paper got some mold on it. Let's say they were actually doing etchings and saw some spots way to the outside border of a few sheets but thought that was just finger prints, however, going back to the bag later the spots had multiplied on unprinted sheets much like those little Gremlins from the movie of the same name (don't get them wet!). Is is best to toss the really bad paper or is there a way to save it? What can be done to erradicate the mold on the printed sheet? Yes, putting this paper in the freezer would be an excellent idea, but it is a little late for that now--aside from the fact that I have no freezer close to the print shop. Thanks, TyRuS ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 16:15:44 -1000 Subject: [Baren 18271] Re: Mold OK Tyrus, here's what, ...although it is possible to (somewhat) remove the mold and it's staining from the paper that you haven't yet printed on, once the mold has digested the sizing in that area, and you have cleaned it with bleach, etc. to get rid of it, there is a pretty good chance that those areas of your paper will accept inks differently than the rest. This will be especially obvious using the hanga technique, much less so with oil based inks. Also considering your time in bleaching, rinsing flattening, maybe resizing, unless this was -really- expensive paper, it may not be worth trying to save it. Jack R. ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 21:20:38 -0500 Subject: [Baren 18272] Re: Mold Dear Jack, I think it's just so great having your curatorial expertise on-line here! Thank you so, SO MUCH !! Keep it up! Mike ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:20:50 +0900 Subject: [Baren 18273] Re: Mold Jack wrote: > ... once the mold has > digested the sizing in that area, and you have cleaned it with bleach, > etc. > to get rid of it, ... Jack, while we've got you here [:-)] can I toss another related question at you on this topic? I have the little handbook put out by the Boston MFA entitled 'How to Care for Works of Art on Paper'. It gives basic background info on preventing problems, but doesn't give any specifics on how to take care of trouble after it has occurred. For example, about foxing, it mentions that a restorer " ... can often successfully remove water stains and foxing, so that a picture may again be viewed with pleasure." I can understand why they don't give 'formulas' etc. etc., as they perhaps want to protect their turf and also don't want to encourage amateurs to do things that might destroy prints. But _can_ a myriad of foxing spots on an old print sometimes be successfully removed without destroying it? Dave ------------------------------ From: "Carole Baker" Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:40:49 -0800 Subject: [Baren 18274] Re: Hanga bleeding and blots Thankyou Bareners! First, you Gayle for reprinting my letter to the digest. Didn't know I needed to use plain text. Lynita, your advise to use paper towels between just the printed area sounds like something I should try as I continue with the print I'm working on now. Perusing the Yoshida book in the encyclopedia this morning I found: "Some prints require a frequent use of blocks with a large-sized design. In that case it becomes necessary to take away the surplus moisture of paper by inserting newspapers. In all cases the artist's judgement is the only guide." This confirms you advise, Lynita. Also read that by printing the smaller block areas first, the moisture problem would be avoided. Like my paintings, my prints tend to be layers of darker on lighter layers. But when I've printed a darker color first, I've had some of the darker color picked up from the paper onto my lighter color block, necesitating cleaning the block off each time. John Amoss wrote:" I have had problems with some very dense pigments- particularly with sumis and phthalos" Yep. I'm having most trouble with the black sumi and W and N Indantrene Blue, pigments I was using for the first time and they may be more apt to wander. I had already figured out to avoid the pthalos. Guess its time to start mixing from dry pigment. John also wrote:..".allowing the pigment and moisture time to settle into the paper after printing is another consideration. Introducing localized water without letting it rest can play push/pull thoughout the paper sheet. " And Lynita wrote..."I play with everything and wait a few hours or even overnight until I feel the paper is evenly dampened and ready to print the next layer" Something to be learned here. Since previously I had had the bleeding show up overnight, I have now been completing a stack of prints in a day,which may be to blame for much of my bleeding problem plus a lot of other errors due to my haste. In my previous letter, I was asking about "blobs" or and how to get rid of them. The word for them that i couldn't remember was "blots" or ketsu-ochi and there is a discussion on them in the Yoshida book, mostly on avoiding them(which i'm working on). The book says "If it is on the margin outside the picture it may be removed by means of boracic acid." I think that is the same thing as boric acid. Has anyone used it and does it work? How strong a solution and where do you get it? And Michael, I have never applied dosa before. I have a little bottle that i got a long time ago from McClain's, and have read instructions in Walter Phillips book using gelatin and alum. I would be very interested in knowing how you do it and especially what kind of paper you use. Thank you all. Time to go wet (not soak) some more paper. Carole ------------------------------ From: "M. Pereira" Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 01:03:41 -0300 Subject: [Baren 18275] Re: v-gouges Hi, nice artistic people, "Hor‡cio wrote: 1st - I draw the image with a BLACK pencil directly on the wood. I don't transfer previous drawings to the block. Obviously, I erase a lot. 2nd - I draw in WHITE with the V (mainly) and U gauges" please allow me to say the way I do: 1st - I draw with china ink (nanquim) and a brush directly on the wood.... Sometimes I make several studies on a A4 sulfit paper, or a bigger paper and after I try to draw the same object in the plate, sometimes I draw directly without any study; 2nd - I carve the areas there are to be white . The most wonderful thing that happens is that when I start carving it never goes strictly as I did , as I drawn , sometimes I see new things when carving , I think that occurs when the draw , the design (o desenho) begins to take the print language, the engraving language. Suddenly, it is not a drawn anymore but a gravure (gravura, ), Did you understand what I sid? Is it relevant or just an idiot thing to say? I know you know all this stuff much better than I , but I love you. Best wishes, Murilo, the peron, not the paper, from a very very beautiful island in South America, a place that is waiting for all Bareners to come here to accomplish its beauty and accomplish also a hanga workshop. ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:12:41 -1000 Subject: [Baren 18276] Re: Mold David Bull wrote: > ...But _can_ a myriad of > foxing spots on an old print sometimes be successfully removed without > destroying it? Yes, in a lot of instances foxing on old prints can be removed. There are, however, all sorts of conditions that control the success, such as the degree of damage, the medium of any image on the paper, and qualities of the paper itself. Unfortunately for hanga, water based inks can often present problems, but they often be successfully improved with great care. One of the reasons that it is difficult to find instructions on "how to de-fox your prints" is that there are so many variables that can affect the outcome, so it can take a good deal of hands on experience to minimize the risk of damaging the print. Often the margin between removing stains and ruining a print is very slight. Jack R. ------------------------------ From: "marilynn smih" Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:58:23 -0700 Subject: [Baren 18277] Re: Baren Digest V19 #1855 Seems I am always going somewhere, to Baja, on the boat, or to the coast and some times in Portland. I take always a packet of drawing pencils, my sketch book and at least one or two blocks. I have carved on the stern of my boat and on a table on the beach in baja. I have a canvas zip bag, smallish, that contains my carving tools and I take my whatever the word for it is, my wooden carving holder. oops I know that is not right but that is what i call it. Often I have a drawing already on the block and do not need to worry about the design, but than again sometimes I am where I drew the piece or draw directly on the block, it all works. I ink and run my blocks back in the studio, wherever that may be, from a garage in Baja to a messy room at the coast. Art is not about a place it is about who and what and where we are and I think it has more feeling when done as we live life. I would suggest the person traveling about with art supplies pack what they think they will need and slowly leave behind what does not work for them, (or add what they missed, ooops) it is, I think individual just as how we use our tools or create our designs. But remember to unpack that box when you arrive, I could not find my copper plates and thought they were here at the beach all the time I was in Baja and missed out doing my dry points because they were indeed in the box that I did not fully unpack, ooops. Happy art. Marilynn ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:24:35 EDT Subject: [Baren 18278] Re: Mold mold???? another reason to print dry and be oily ROFL JOHN OF THE FURRY PRESS ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V19 #1856 *****************************