Baren Digest             Saturday, 23 February 2002     Volume 18 : Number 1735


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From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:32:42 EST
Subject: [Baren 17141] colors and gobbledy gook 



Hi all, I've been trying to figure out how to send my posts without the extra 
double message coming along with it, but I can't find anywhere in aol to 
change this (I have aol version 6).  If anyone knows how to fix this, email 
me offlist, I'd love to change that option!  

Mike, watercolors and gouaches do work splendidly for hanga - however, the 
pure pigments dispersed in water (w/gum arabic/glycerine added for 
binder/wetting agent respectively) can go a much longer way as they are such 
concentrated color.
happy printing!
Sarah



------------------------------

From: Mike Lyon <mikelyon@mlyon.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:33:49 -0600
Subject: [Baren 17142] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1734 

At 10:01 PM 2/22/2002 +0900, "Bill H Ritchie Jr" <ritchie@seanet.com> wrote:

>Seriously, I'm wondering if anybody knows if the cheaper Dremel, at 5,000
>rpm, is okay, or if the 25,000 rpm cutting speed would be better for sharp
>edges


Hi Bill,

Dremel (and other rotary tools) all tend to leave 'furry' edges.  The 
higher speed models tend to remove a smaller chip, so the fur is smaller, 
too, but they also are more likely to burn.  There are power tools 
available which have a reciprocating movement and they take special gouges 
and other familiar carving tools and sort of vibrate or jack-hammer them 
through the wood.  They are good for people with severe arthritis or 
insufficient physical strength to carve with traditional toos.  I've used 
them a bit and didn't like them much.  Too heavy and bulky and noisy and 
slow.  Personally, I love the sounds of carving -- the crisp swooshing 
whisper of clearing out with a sharp tool thrills me a bit.

In hanga, you don't have to clear the whole white space, just enough 
cleared out around the 'islands' which are supposed to print to avoid 
brushing ink outside the printing area.  One to two inches is usually 
plenty for me depending on the size of the area being printed and the size 
brush I plan to use during printing (but there are other considerations, 
one of which is the tendency to unintentionally emboss/deboss the paper 
during printing with the baren, especially on the edge of printed areas and 
the outside edge of the non-printing cleared out area).

A sharp gouge makes very short work of clearing large areas even in the 
hardest woods.  I usually clear while standing, my work piece on a table 
fixed against a stop.  Graham Scholes recently showed his peg-board like 
jig which looked to be pretty useful.  You can see his set up here:    I 
prefer to have the block flat on a 36 to 38 inch high table.  Then I use 
two hands, one hand behind the other -- the back one does the pushing and 
controls depth and the front hand rests on the tool palm down to hold the 
blade down and assists in fine tuning. I keep my elbows in and use my hips 
and body to push, not just my arms.  Kinda a nice rhythmic rocking motion 
with my whole body.  I take shallow cuts just a few inches long with a 5/8" 
shallow gouge, maybe two cuts per second working methodically.  I exhale 
while cutting and pause while inhaling.  It's short work.  When done, I 
clear and flatten the ridges more slowly and carefully.  Often the grain 
isn't parallel to the plank (level).  In that case, I try to cut 'with' the 
grain, that is cutting in the direction the fiber bundles rise -- other 
wise, the gouge tends to follow the grain down and the surface splits or 
the knife gets buried deeper than I can push.

P.S.  Did you ever hook up with Jerry, my Port Townsend buddy?  Let me know 
off-list if you'd like his email or phone again...

Mike
Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com 




------------------------------

From: Mike Lyon <mikelyon@mlyon.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:15:42 -0600
Subject: [Baren 17144] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1734 

At 10:01 PM 2/22/2002 +0900, you wrote:

>From: Charles Morgan <cmorgan@uvic.ca>
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:34:40 -0800
>Subject: [Baren 17135] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1733
>
>Mike,
>
>For us rank beginners, could you say just a bit more about how you use the
>tubed water colors. Do you mix them with a bit of water first and then
>brush them onto the block? Or do you use them undiluted (expensive that
>way)? Just what do you do??? THANKS for your advice.
>
>Cheers ....... Charles


Not yet mentioned, but very convenient and gives consistent and excellent
results: water color. The kind that comes in a tube. Permanence, stable
binders, add rice paste to taste, no muss, no fuss, no waste. Easy to get
started. Personally, I prefer Windsor & Newton brand.

Dear Charles,

Well, expensive is relative.  Paint isn't that expensive (to me).  Mix your 
own pigments is probably cheaper, but prepared watercolor is probably more 
consistent over time.  Here's what I do.  I squeeze a little water color 
(how much depends on how much I think I need for printing) into a shallow 
dish (I use a set of porcelain dishes about 2 1/2 inches in diameter and 
about 1/2 inch deep, but anything similar will do -- smart people would use 
something with a water-tight cover so their pigment's didn't dry out 
overnight).  Then I spray the worm with a little water from a plastic spray 
bottle I got at the hardware store and mix it with a 25cent 1/4" wide stiff 
bristle brush I got the same place.  I leave it about the consistency of 
whipping cream, but you can dilute to taste.  The only waste is whatever is 
in your brushes and dish at the end of printing, and if you don't wash your 
brushes, once the brushes are 'saturated' there isn't any waste at all.  I 
brush water on my blocks several times prior to printing in order to 
'condition' and stabilize them.  Then, for each print, I use that stiff 
little 1/4" brush to dab pigment on my block (more dabs for deeper color, 
or more printings for deeper color), if I want the pigment dispersed more 
'smoothly', I add a dab of rice paste (diluted to similar whipping cream 
consistency and applied with a twin of that stiff little brush) or maybe 
one for each dab of pigment.  Usually I print with primary colors.  If I 
want green, I either print blue on top of yellow, or I put a couple dabs of 
yellow per dab of blue onto the damp surface of the block.  The amount of 
water on the block (which I drizzle across before the pigment dabs so 
lightly using just the very tip of a 4" cheapest variety bristle paintbrush 
and try to control exactly the amount of water to replace that which has 
evaporated from the block and printing brush and picked up by the last 
print and produce consistent results for the next print.  Anyway, the 
printing brush is yet another brush -- it could be as simple as a horsehair 
shoe brush cut to size and with hairs sanded to points, or it could be a 
$40 to $60 Japanese brush especially made for the purpose -- I get far 
better results with the most expensive ones, so I spend my money 
here.  after a few prints, this printing brush is fully charged with water, 
ink, and glue, and acts as a sort of 'buffer' averaging out the natural 
inconsistencies among those dabs from print to print so that the run of 
prints is uniform.

When you get done brushing out the pigment etc on the block, it usually 
appears to a novice to be much too dry.  Usually beginners keep everything 
way too wet!  Even when they think they have the block dry enough, it is 
still soaking!  But how much pigment/moisture depends a lot on the effect 
you want, pigment density you want, the PAPER (and it's thickness, 
absorbancy, dampness), and the character of the block itself.  There are a 
lot of variables.  Usually if the block doesn't look flat dry, but is 
uniformly just damp, with a matte surface and no glossy wet place at all 
you are close.  Printing hanga is definitely not science, but art or 
'feel', and you just have to suffer through inconsistent, sometimes 
disgusting but often interesting and occasionally downright awsomely 
'brings tears to your eyes' beautiful results before you begin to get the 
'hang' of  hanga.

Mike

Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com 

------------------------------

From: Mike Lyon <mikelyon@mlyon.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:26:26 -0600
Subject: [Baren 17145] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1734 

At 10:01 PM 2/22/2002 +0900, you wrote:

>In keeping with our current conversation on first time exchangers and
>smudges and such things, Dan Dew has kindly offered to share his first print
>with everyone, a neat print and a neater experience. Go have a look:
>http://www.barenforum.org/messageboard/guestbook.html


Oh, Dan!  Here I was all set to enjoy some kind of disaster -- the guy's 
first print, all covered with bloody fingerprints and ink smudges and gobs 
of ink everywhere, get myself a few nasty chuckles, you know -- and it 
turns out to be one of those 'push sweet, shy little Judy Garland out on 
stage, and after hanging her head and shuffling her feet and wringing her 
hands a bit, she wins the contest and graciously accepts the thunderous 
applause of her admiring audience' things -- Geez, Dan, what a beautiful 
little print you made!  And first time out of the box!  That's supposed to 
make the rest of us feel better about OUR first stumble/bumble 
efforts?  Come ON!  You must have something more horrible looking than THAT 
to show us!  Geez!       ...Nice print.

Mike
Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com 

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From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:59:22 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17146] dremels and other whiny things  

I own a variable speed economy Dremel with the pen attachment and use it on
occasion.
I agree with Mike that clearing is best done with large sharp chisels. I
have flexcut chisels and you know I work large; no mallet required. I too
have the hori-dai which folds completely flat over my work surface and
doubles as a bench stop for good posture.

In my experience with the Dremel, you will find it inadequate for clearing
as it is much slower than a 1/2" U-gauge. I work on solid cherry mostly and
the higher speeds in my Dremel (5000 rpm) tend to burn the wood, but I hear
cherry is known for burning easy. The Dremel, however, makes some wonderful
random marks that would be tough to get with standard hand tools. I use it
often for backgrounds and such things.
As far as the fuzzy edges, yes it does that too, but only with some
attachments like tiny drills. A caress with a flat chisel over the
aforementioned fuzz removes all fuzziness thereof. I have seen Daryl work
with the stone attachments, using the edge of the cylinders to make nice
sharp marks on birch plywood. I would definitely recommend getting a variety
of critters to use, as they have different behaviors and provide a wide
variety of marks. I picked up about 600 dental drills at e-bay for $35 about
a year ago and am still working on dulling them.
Diamond stone tools are also a good buy, but they tend to clog. If you want
to clear you will need larger critters.
A big drawback of the rotary tools is the dust and vibration. A dust mask
takes care of inhaling the dust, but that vibration is awfully annoying on
my perfectly healthy wrists. The whiney noise is tolerable, but I have to
turn up Carlos Santana way loud, which could start fights with the
neighbors.

On the reciprocating carvers, I purchased a converter that works with the
Dremel and works very well. I had to sharpen all the chisels it came with
because they were junk and in fact plan on ordering some better chisels.
This works very well, also has a pen-like handle and makes quick work of
clearing any area.
Main drawback I see is the noise and vibration. The noise is horrible and
you can really feel the impact on your wrist despite being effortless to
carve.
Having said that, both tools I have are on the low end of things as far as
mechanized wood working tools. I would check catalogs for the Cadillac
models of these things and look for low vibration, low noise. If you are
going to make these tools part of your daily grind (heh) I would also invest
in a dust control system.
Some good websites in http://www.1000woodcuts.com/artsupplies.html under
wood and tools.

Happy whin whin whinnnnnnnNNNNNNNN CUTTING!

Maria

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


------------------------------

From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi.chukran@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:13:16 -0500
Subject: [Baren 17147] Re: dremels and other whiny things 

Maria, this is really good information to know.  I just bought an
attachment for our Dremel so I wouldn't have to hold the thing in my hands,
but since I already have carpal tunnel syndrome and my hearing is already
getting worse, sounds like I should stick to the chisels.  I'm also
*extremely* allergic to dust of any kind....duh...never thought about it
kicking up that much dust....

I was wondering how the Dremels would work on linoleum, though?  Anybody
try it?

Thanks...

Bobbi C.
- --------------


>In my experience with the Dremel, you will find it inadequate for clearing
>as it is much slower than a 1/2" U-gauge. I work on solid cherry mostly and
>the higher speeds in my Dremel (5000 rpm) tend to burn the wood, but I hear
>cherry is known for burning easy. The Dremel, however, makes some wonderful
>random marks that would be tough to get with standard hand tools. I use it
>often for backgrounds and such things.



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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:15:26 -0600
Subject: [Baren 17148] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1734 02/22/2002 11:15:28 AM 

Mike writes:
"...Printing hanga is definitely not science, but art or
'feel', and you just have to suffer through inconsistent, sometimes
disgusting but often interesting and occasionally downright awsomely
'brings tears to your eyes' beautiful results before you begin to get the
'hang' of  hanga."

Ditto Mike. I am still very much a beginner in hanga style but every new
print builts confidence and brings about improvements.

Re pigments and watercolours, I do pretty much exactly as described. I have
used a variety of stuff, from
brand-name watercolors to Speedball, to Ocaldo Printing inks (kindly
donated by Gary Luedthke...Gary where
are you ?)...to wonderful powder pigments from Japan.  I am gravitating
toward the better stuff just because the
concentration of color is stronger. Also want to try the Akua colors that
Sarah & April recommend.

Just like Mike said, you add water to the consistency you want to dilute
your color. Ditto on all the other brush
& application stuff.....the right amount of paste is very important to
obtain the desired result (flat even color or the opposite sesame-seed
goma-zuri(?)).  I think Graham has some photos up on his website on just
how much paste to apply per color
area.

For those wanting to try it.....or having problems now ...here is something
perhaps I do differently from the other hanga folks that makes it easier
for me. I sometimes use my press for large color areas such as backgrounds.
The blocks are cut the same way using kento marks for registration, the
color and paste is applied and brushed on the same way, except that instead
of using a baren or a spoon....I use my press. This gives me full control
for good strong coverage of large areas so hard for beginners to do with
barens. For smaller color areas I use my student grade baren. A marriage of
sorts.

One thing that is so important is to let your brushes, block and paper all
become receptive to hanga printing. Your paper must be soft (moist), your
block must have received several applications of color/paste before it is
truly ready to deliver adequate results and your brushes must have achieved
saturation...the first few prints pulled are usually disappointing (I often
slip a few sheets of newsprint on top of my stack of paper to work thru
this break-in period )...only after bringing all these points together does
the fun begin!

thanks...Julio Rodriguez (Skokie, Illinois)


------------------------------

From: Vishnovus@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:34:04 EST
Subject: [Baren 17149] Re: dremels and other whiny things 

Maria, Im lurking away here...not adding much as Im a neophyte with 
woodblocks, but I was interested in what you said about the dremel, as I was 
thinking of trying one on wood. I use mine on plastic and copper. Sometimes 
disapointing..sometimes wonderful.
After reading your post, I think I will stick to the hand tools for the 
moment and keep the variables to a minimum. By the way, Im also a Carlos 
Santana fan too....cant work without Supernatural on.
Best,
Ld

------------------------------

From: Graham <gscholes@woodblock.info>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:44:37 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17150] Tube pigments... $$$$$ 


>Charles wrote.....
>For us rank beginners, could you say just a bit more about how you use the
>tubed water colors. Do you mix them with a bit of water first and then
>brush them onto the block? Or do you use them undiluted (expensive that
>way)? Just what do you do??? THANKS for your advice.
>
>Cheers ....... Charles


Gees a guy misses a few hours with e-mail problems and he misses all the fun.
I do not recommend using any watercolour tube pigments for Hanga.  I have tried 
them and compared to pigment as explained in my post re, "colourant that are pure 
pigments in a waterbase dispersant". there is not contest for intensity as related 
to cost.  Winsor Newton watercolour cost about 14.00 14ml tube.  That converts to 
$28.00 per oz.  The pigments I get as listed on my web site cost $6.25 to $7.25 
for 2 oz jars. This would make tube pigments $56.00 for 2 ounces.  Certainly no contest.

At Boot Camp Charles you get enough of these pigment to do all the printing you will 
do at camp plus some.   I will be doing a lot of hand holding at class so you need 
not be concerned with regards to getting it right before hand ... Would hate for you 
to learn bad habits.  They are so hard to break.  (<:

Someone mentioned using shoe brushes.  If you want to experience complete frustration 
and get turned off of this sport then using a shoe brush is in order.

I will be in touch personally to all participants with regards to best buys in inking 
brushes, baren, and chisels. The technical infor regarding layout for the keyline drawing 
as it relates to the kento positions on the block...is almost ready for upload to my site.

Mike has made an gallant effort to explain how to ink and print a plate. You gotta see 
it happen and then you will only be half there.  Much work is needed to get it down pat.

On the subject of seeing it happen ... We have one space due to a cancelation for a Gal.  
Jan our Aussie, needs company in the first week at Boot Camp.

CREATE - CUT - PRINT.

Graham

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From: Printmaker <severn@acay.com.au>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:43:40 +1100
Subject: [Baren 17151] MDF - Correction 

Mike Lyon said

Yes, Printmaker, that's correct about toxicity for MDF, but
the caution is 
because the sawdust from cutting with power tools can cause
problems.  I 
don't believe that hand-carvers will experience any problem
at all, indoors 
or out.

Actually Mike, you were so busy _correcting_ me with your
superior knowledge, that you didn't read my post correctly.
I said

'that it emits toxic fumes'. 

When you cut it, by _any_ method, and possibly when its just
lying around, it emits toxic fumes.

I did not say that it had anything to do with sawdust or
power tools. 

Oh, and the name's Josephine
 [;-)] 

------------------------------

From: Graham <gscholes@woodblock.info>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:36:12 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17152] Re: Fwd: Re: Baren Digest V18 #1734 



>I meant to include Graham's link in my post a minute ago, but forgot 
>-- here it is:  Graham Scholes recently showed his peg-board like 
>jig which looked to be pretty useful.  You can see his set up at 
>http://www.woodblock.info/bootcamp/hori-dai.html
>

Mike

Not only is the picture there if gives all information so one can 
easily make it.
There is a copyright on it.  Make one for yourself is fair game.


>Graham Scholes recently showed his peg-board like jig


Hey Mike, that page has be in existence since Jan 2000 saving the 
posture of many, I hope.


Graham

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From: FurryPressII@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:56:35 EST
Subject: [Baren 17153] dremels and flex tools and there cousens 

I don't use dremels for plank grain seems to tear the wood and i am not 
looking for that kind of effect, But they do work well on end grain.  After 
going through three dremels i bought a jewlers version that you hang from a 
stand has a flexable attachment i occassionally use it for detail but i still 
like a burin much better and i prefer to work away from home at my fav. 
coffee shop.  but for taking out large areas in an engraving nothing works 
better.  (i have recently bought a japanese chesel with the same shape as a 
round scourper but 4 times larger than any engraving tool made can't wait to 
try it.)

john

------------------------------

From: ArtfulCarol@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:07:35 EST
Subject: [Baren 17154] Re: Sorry 

Dear Jean,
I appreciate your message of apology.  The situation was a mistake and turned 
ludicrous. You should know that I would not deliberately harass.

We shared 2 wonderful days in San Francisco.

I am going about promoting the Firemens prints "full throttle." because I 
feel this is so worthy.

Carol

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End of Baren Digest V18 #1735
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