Baren Digest               Tuesday, 31 July 2001       Volume 16 : Number 1507


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James G Mundie <jimandkatemundie@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:50:50 -0400
Subject: [Baren 15288] printing without hands 

FurryPressII@aol.com wrote:
 
> i print wood cuts and engraving using faris metal   steel printing 
> press no hands 
> john of the furry press

And in the cutting, are you holding the tools in your teeth?  If so,
you've been holding out on us, John!  :-D

James


------------------------------

From: Frank Trueba <ftrueba@cats.ucsc.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 08:05:23 -0700
Subject: [Baren 15289] Re: case of the cases 

Hi Maria,

I've only ever ordered one case through the Baren Forum
(for Exchange #10, due Aug 1st) and paid for it with the
rest of my order.

As a matter of fact, the coordinator Lynita Shimizu was
asking me about just this week.  She was going to contact
you about it.

Thanks,

frank


At 04:59 PM 7/28/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Dearest fellow Bareners,
>
>I was cleaning my desk today (it's that time of the year again) and
>discovered some unfinished business regarding past exchange cases.
>As the story goes, a presentation case for our cherished prints used to be
>ordered with an order form through the Baren Web Site. Orders would go to
>Dave and, on an honor system, there was a young girl in Canada who used to
>collect the money.
>There was a big storm and water fell upon the bean stalk, and it grew and
>grew---oops, wrong story!
>With the advent of the Baren Mall, a vehicle became available for easy
>ordering of cases. Now you can order and pay all at once, thus eliminating
>one whole step and/or middle (wo)man, and scrapping the honor system. No
>pay-no play.
>Since the Mall Manager is now in charge of keeping track of the cases, the
>young girl in Canada bequeathed her spreadsheets to me. Low and behold!!!
>Looks like the honor system worked about 90% of the time, which is very
>good, but but but...OH MY! I see that some Baren members that have been
>savoring their delicious presentation cases have not--ahem, how do I put
>this??? pppaid for them???
>Okay, this is where the story gets interesting. As everyone knows, I own a
>pair of wolf mixes (well, one wolf mix and one huge Akita). Yes, you got it,
>case-breath! That was a threat!!!
>Okay, seriously now, those of you (you know who you are) who think that may
>have slipped and perhaps you thought you were going to get a bill...consider
>this a bill. No late fees or nothin' heck of a deal if you ask me.
>SO! If you received a case in a past exchange and have not yet paid for it,
>please mosey on over to your friendly (really) Baren Mall. Browse the
>"Shops" at your leisure, and notice that Shop #5 is the Case Shop. You may
>use the online shopping cart or print out the order form and send a good ol'
>fashioned check. Time to settle.
>After a couple of weeks, I will be contacting folk individually to see if
>the money got somehow criss-crossed in the great global system that we have
>come to know as [Baren].
>
>Thanks all in advance,
>Maria
>
>PS  For those of you in the current Exchange, you may order your
>presentation cases there as well.
>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>Maria Arango
>Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
>http://www.1000woodcuts.com
>maria@mariarango.com
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


------------------------------

From: "Bea Gold" <bnj50@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 08:49:42 -0700
Subject: [Baren 15290] Re: Let's try again

Dan, didn't you get my message?  I asked where you'd be in LA - big place.
We'll be home on the 5th if you'd like to visit - I'll even give you a
drink!
People in LA area - Pete White, Ruth Leaf, georga garside, and Bobbie Mandel
and me.   If you want e-mail addresses let me know.  Bea

- -----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Dew <ddew@tampabay.rr.com>
To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp <baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp>
Date: Monday, July 30, 2001 5:25 AM
Subject: [Baren 15286] Let's try again


>Anyone want a drink on me?
>I'm heading out to Los Angeles this week and was wondering who is near by
>and thirsty?
>Any tips on a good place to view, discuss, etc... with printmakers?
>
>dan dew


------------------------------

From: "Bill H Ritchie Jr" <ritchie@seanet.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:39:13 -0700
Subject: [Baren 15291] Re: Dressing for work

Regarding Art as work and how you dress up, Marilynn said:

>"It was a huge put down to me as
>a person and left no room for me to even hold myself of value let alone
call
>myself anything in her eyes."

This is interesting, Marilynn, because it reminds me of when I was
"re-inventing myself" and I delved into books and meetings in the workaday
world. As a college professor, I wasn't as aware of the fear that inhabits
most of the "troops" out there. Uniformity is a key to success, and in the
simplicity of that world, clothing, too, is a simple matter of "dress for
success."

When I wrote my book, Art of Selling Art, I gave a whole chapter to what I
learned from reading the clothing engineers' reports. It was amazing, but
true. Things like whether to wear a tan overcoat or a black one, and whether
to buy wool or a blend--that sort of stuff.

Fear is the motivator, as in fear of poverty, fear of getting laid off, fear
of social ostracism and, worse, professional rejection.

I wouldn't be too hard on the "friend" who made the comment about "going to
work." In US America, art and culture in general was never part of the
national agenda--and still is not. I am not putting your friend if I suggest
that in all probability her so called "taste" in art probably runs to the
center, or what is called "gravitation to the mean."

Conventional, commonsense thinking on the part of the worker-consumer runs
to the center, not too risky, but just maybe a little bit different so as to
get some attention and beat, if necessary, the competition.

All this runs at different angles to what makes art and artists important to
a civilized society. An uncivilized society, as you know, pursues ignorance
with more vigor than wisdom and equitable treatment of other people.

Your "friend" might, in fact, envy people who have more freedom--and who can
blame them? I believe freedom is wonderful and is the highest level human
beings can try for. Some wisdom regarding what one wears when works might
result in thinking that the clothing one wears is a little like the tool one
uses (I call them all instruments).

Because what I learned from the re-invention of arts' studios and
practices--mostly due to engineers and scientists--was the measurable effect
a creative person has that benefits society.

Help this friend by allowing her to view and collect your art, and ignore
the fears that they express in subtle ways, judging, giving opinions when
none were asked for, etc., and keep the topic on the cultural value of your
personal quest.

Just my thinking this morning. Thank you, Marilynn, for everything!

Bill H. Ritchie, Jr
500 Aloha #105
Seattle WA 98109
(206) 285-0658
Professional: www.seanet.com/~ritchie
E-Store: www.myartpatron.com
General: www.emeraldaworks.com
First Game Portal: www.artsport.com


------------------------------

From: Daniel Dew <ddew@tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:03:11 -0400
Subject: [Baren 15292] Re: Let's try again 

In Anahiem, near the convention center.  I will be arriving the 2nd and
leaving the 4th (at 1:00 a.m. in the morning!).

Ping me back off list with everyone's address.

dan dew

> From: "Bea Gold" <bnj50@earthlink.net>

> 
> Dan, didn't you get my message?  I asked where you'd be in LA - big place.
> We'll be home on the 5th if you'd like to visit - I'll even give you a
> drink!
> People in LA area - Pete White, Ruth Leaf, georga garside, and Bobbie Mandel
> and me.   If you want e-mail addresses let me know.  Bea
> 


------------------------------

From: "Raymond L. Hamilton" <rham@bellatlantic.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:49:46 -0400
Subject: [Baren 15293] Re: Art ed on-line 

Bill H Ritchie Jr wrote:
> 
> Hi all -
> 
> This is to survey action and interest in art education on line.
> 
> Some Baren list members are art teachers, covering several levels.
> 
> Some of us have Web sites that are virtual classrooms; Baren itself is a
> virtual storehouse from which people can become printmakers on a level, in
> many ways, with someone schooled in a traditional studio/classroom.
> 
> Baren also connects people with workshops all over the world--connections
> that otherwise might have been missed.
> 
> Baren list also causes workshops to happen, travel, etc. that otherwise
> would not happen, most likely.
> 
> So I'm wondering what the consensus would be if it were said that "Art
> Education is already available on-line."
> 
> Or does that phrase "art education" turn off people, due to bad experiences?
> Or does it turn on people, due to expectation s of some kind? like, for
> example, needed college credits, certification satisfaction or some kind of
> philosophic base?
> 
> In 1980 I proposed a way to teach woodcut "at a distance" around Washington
> State. It was not acceptable then. I wonder if, now, it might be acceptable.
> Or, is it needed and wanted by anyone--what with baren doing what it does so
> well without the involvement of an institution?
> 
> I'm thinking also that you might know a school that is already teaching
> print making at a distance, if so I'd like to know what college or
> university this might be.
> 
> Finally, if I do have a way to teach printmaking at a distance, and also
> make it "college level" i.e., creditable to the extent it could be used to
> satisfy certification and degree requirements, would there be interest in
> it?
> 
> In Seattle I think we have several corporations with grant-giving resources
> that might, if I proposed this to them, find some self-serving reason to
> fund a pilot project without necessarily an institution's credit-giving
> involvement.
> 
> It's an idea I'd like your opinions about--and if out of this survey of
> impressions or reactions a class does grow, I'd like to be among the people
> team-teaching it.
> 
> And getting paid for teaching it, too!
> 
> (I love teaching and do it free, but I'd also like to reduce my debt from
> having taught free for so long! - smile)
> 
> Bill H. Ritchie, Jr
> 500 Aloha #105
> Seattle WA 98109
> (206) 285-0658
> Professional: www.seanet.com/~ritchie
> E-Store: www.myartpatron.com
> General: www.emeraldaworks.com
> First Game Portal: www.artsport.com
bill;
Just a thought on the idea of teaching thru the internet.  One thing
lacking is the face to face interaction.  An idea that comes to my mind
would be to develop an instrument that would supplement what is going on
in many college classrooms today.  for a small fee you could aid
instructors who have too little time and interest in just woodcut
printmaking.  Also there are art groups throughout the country that
could use a service such as this.
Something to think about.
Ray Hamilton
rham@Bellatlantic.net

------------------------------

From: "Jim Bryant" <jim.bryant@enmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:47:28 -0600
Subject: [Baren 15294] Re: Art ed on-line 

Hello Bill,

I would like to address the college credit portion of your question.

There is a push for college level online courses, and they are needed in all
areas. Probably the largest consumer of this type of education is K-12
teachers. Many states are giving these teachers pay increases for
re-education, however the re-education must come from an accredited
institution, and most often needs to be at the graduate level.

The problem that we have had is in giving feedback. It is simple to put the
information out there--on the web, on a video tape, on xerox copies sent in
the mail. But the students need the one-to-one interaction to get better
quickly. Students will always have situations where a black isn't black
enough or they've not rolled out enough ink or the slab isn't clean enough.
All of these things are easy to fix when you are in the room, difficult if
you are not.

And to give the students graduate credit, you will most certainly need to
include some feedback on their aesthetic choices. Another thing that is
simple enough to do when you are in the room, and difficult when you are
not. (Some day web cams with quick connections may fix these problems, but
we're not there yet.)

This is why most art courses on the web are art appreciation type classes
for undergraduates, and period specific art history courses for graduates.
It is easier for a teacher to give feedback on papers, than on prints.

That said, go for it. I would like to hear how it turns out.

Jim Bryant
Chair, Department of Art
Eastern New Mexico University

(I don't usually use the title, but thought for this one it might be
appropriate.)

>

> Hi all -
>
> This is to survey action and interest in art education on line.
>
snip
>
> Finally, if I do have a way to teach printmaking at a distance, and also
> make it "college level" i.e., creditable to the extent it could be used to
> satisfy certification and degree requirements, would there be interest in
> it?
>
> In Seattle I think we have several corporations with grant-giving resources
> that might, if I proposed this to them, find some self-serving reason to
> fund a pilot project without necessarily an institution's credit-giving
> involvement.
>
> It's an idea I'd like your opinions about--and if out of this survey of
> impressions or reactions a class does grow, I'd like to be among the people
> team-teaching it.
>
> And getting paid for teaching it, too!
>
> (I love teaching and do it free, but I'd also like to reduce my debt from
> having taught free for so long! - smile)
>
>
> Bill H. Ritchie, Jr
> 500 Aloha #105
> Seattle WA 98109
> (206) 285-0658
> Professional: www.seanet.com/~ritchie
> E-Store: www.myartpatron.com
> General: www.emeraldaworks.com
> First Game Portal: www.artsport.com

------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 14:05:38 -0700
Subject: [Baren 15295] RE: Art ed on-line

I agree mostly on what has been said about distance education. As Jim--er,
Professor Bryant has mentioned, teaching the process would be the toughest
since it is impossible to know exactly what it is that a student is doing
and how to correct it. How do you describe that sound that the roller makes
when it is loaded? fluffy sound? pillowy sound? squeeshy yet tacky yet
smooth sound?
As an example, someone I taught in a workshop just wrote me and said: "I am
getting bubbles in my ink, what am I doing wrong?" Where do I start! Imagine
your task as a teacher and the emails flying back and forth to solve that
one (6 and counting, with ONE student).
However, it seems that after the process is learned, more advanced students
could benefit as long as there is a mechanism for uploading/viewing prints.
I would go as far as having prints mailed in to the instructor for
evaluation/discussion. Prints on hand, both teacher and student could then
virtually chat, perhaps even a whole class-chat with an exchange type of set
up where everyone in the chat room is looking at a collated set of prints
simultaneously.
In fact chat rooms and, as Jim mentioned, web cam able demo rooms would be
an incredible resource to put together.
Huge problem here in Nevada, since we really have two cities in the entire
state and hundreds of miles in between. Some rural communities are very
isolated and are just beginning to benefit from the University's distance
education programs. But, alas! nobody to take on the arduous task of
teaching distance art.
I'm sure I didn't help.
Maria

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


------------------------------

From: "Tyrus Clutter" <TRClutter@NNU.Edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:35:17 -0600
Subject: [Baren 15296] RE: Art ed on-line 

No, Maria... I think you did help.

   I am not too interested in this whole credit over the net thing, but 
our Dean certainly is. One reason that distance learning can become 
problematic, which has little to do with this discussion in terms of art, 
is that it is a lot cheaper and easier to pay somebody for an internet 
class than to have her teach full-time (for art that would mean with a 
fully functioning and equipped studio). So, the school can pay an adjunct 
and that saves a ton on benefits and costs of physical space. Another 
factor which has been a debate recently is whose property is the class in 
the end. If I make up an on-line class (using the school's server) then a 
syllabus and other needed info will be available, perhaps, to many other 
viewers. Even if this is safeguarded and students have to have passwords 
for access, let's say I find another position ot get booted. If that info 
is on the school's server they are going to claim it as their property and 
will just find another person to fill in the role of the instructor--sans
any commission for my hard work in developing the class.
   However, I do see some of what Maria said as very relevant. The way
that Baren has worked so far brings up new ways of thinking. If portfolios
had to be exchanged among class participants for a critique I think it
would prove to be very beneficial. I use Baren portfolios as teaching
tools for my classes. We all have discussions both on and off list about
specifics of particular prints. I think that good photos on a website
could show many things, but there are going to be some much needed
elements which are missing (the roller example is perfect--what about the
glistening silver quality of the rolled out ink which quickly disappears?
How do you explain that fully with text?). So, I would think that the only
way for classes to work alright would be at the graduate level. Can anyone
image teaching an intro class in any medium without face-to-face contact?

TyRuS

><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><
Prof. Tyrus Clutter
Director of Friesen Art Galleries
Dept. of Art & Music
Northwest Nazarene University
623 Holly St.
Nampa, Idaho  83686
TRClutter@NNU.edu
(208) 467-8398


------------------------------

From: "Jim Bryant" <jim.bryant@enmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:19:24 -0600
Subject: [Baren 15297] Re: Art ed on-line 

Maria,

Thanks for using my title, sounds sort of nice, as i rarely hear it from my
students.

You mention 2 things that i strongly agree with. 6 calls/emails from one
student sounds about right, one of the teachers here does an online photo
history course--the calls that he gets most frequently are technology
questions that have nothing to do with the subject of the course, "my
netscape won't load, i didn't get that email, how do i get on the internet,
etc."

But you also mention the rural nature of Nevada--i'm no stranger to that
environment in New Mexico. But that may be one of the prime spots for online
education to take off. In big cities there are always community colleges to
serve many of the educational needs of the community, but in rural
communities there may be a larger demand for the online teaching.

That brings up another issue though, setting up a printroom of anytype is
expensive. It may be a turn-off for a person wanting to take a course to
have to layout the money for a slab, brayer, baren, ink, etc. Heck, many of
my students are upset that the paper is so expensive, if i asked them to buy
all the equipment too, they would likely drop out.

jim-

- ----------
>From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
>To: <baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp>
>Subject: [Baren 15295] RE: Art ed on-line
>Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001, 3:05 PM
>

> I agree mostly on what has been said about distance education. As Jim--er,
> Professor Bryant has mentioned, teaching the process would be the toughest
> since it is impossible to know exactly what it is that a student is doing
> and how to correct it. How do you describe that sound that the roller makes
> when it is loaded? fluffy sound? pillowy sound? squeeshy yet tacky yet
> smooth sound?
> As an example, someone I taught in a workshop just wrote me and said: "I am
> getting bubbles in my ink, what am I doing wrong?" Where do I start! Imagine
> your task as a teacher and the emails flying back and forth to solve that
> one (6 and counting, with ONE student).
> However, it seems that after the process is learned, more advanced students
> could benefit as long as there is a mechanism for uploading/viewing prints.
> I would go as far as having prints mailed in to the instructor for
> evaluation/discussion. Prints on hand, both teacher and student could then
> virtually chat, perhaps even a whole class-chat with an exchange type of set
> up where everyone in the chat room is looking at a collated set of prints
> simultaneously.
> In fact chat rooms and, as Jim mentioned, web cam able demo rooms would be
> an incredible resource to put together.
> Huge problem here in Nevada, since we really have two cities in the entire
> state and hundreds of miles in between. Some rural communities are very
> isolated and are just beginning to benefit from the University's distance
> education programs. But, alas! nobody to take on the arduous task of
> teaching distance art.
> I'm sure I didn't help.
> Maria
>
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> Maria Arango
> Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
> http://www.1000woodcuts.com
> maria@mariarango.com
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

------------------------------

From: Brian Lockyear <brianl@synopsys.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:17:56 -0700
Subject: [Baren 15298] RE: Art ed on-line 

One of the other difficulties with setting up on-line printmaking programs is
that some percentage of the course value is in getting access to facilities
and space.  I can take a class and see if I like printing on a press without
having to buy the press upfront.  Or inks.  Or cleaning solutions.  Or open
table spaces.  I just have to pay a studio and equipment fee.  This is even
more so in other disciplines such as metalsmithing or ceramics where you
require a kiln or torches and bending brakes or whatever.

With hanga style printing the equipment costs are relatively low.  But you
still have to get everybody to find wood, carving tools, inks, etc.  And
coordinating that over remote sites seems like a difficult task.  And it is
difficult to envision how the "right amount" of rice paste to add will be
communicated well remotely.

    - Brian -


------------------------------

From: "Murilo Pereira" <muriloap@newsite.com.br>
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:26:03 -0300
Subject: [Baren 15299] Re: Baren Digest V16 #1502

Gayle, I like what you said about computer printing and painting. I have
done some to "Printmakers Fun  Page" of Cris Mercier, in the UK. Today I
received a email from him talking about the colors of may images that now
have a dark green behind them that hides the other colors. I like very much
to do it. It's like painting and engraving all together. I do it with the
mouse and it's difficult to make the mouse do waht I want, the lines I want,
and respect limits I want too, and it becames that old and good fight of the
artist and his tools/his materials. I love the process of doing it and love
the results too. If you don't like it your can clean itr and sart over and
over again. I like the results too, very much, if it wans't so I wouldn't
send it to Cris. I would like very much to print hte works but I don't have
the necessary equipamente do do it with colors. Can we call it a print,
computer print?

------------------------------

From: juan <viscult@prodigy.net.mx>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 22:23:13 -0500
Subject: [Baren 15300] Missing my Baren Digest 

DEAR ADMINISTRATOR:

Im susbriber of your digest baren letter, but I haven=B4t received any one

from you since last monday.  Is there something wrong out there?

Kindly,

Juan Guerrero, from MEXICO


------------------------------

From: Sunnffunn@aol.com
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 01:20:37 EDT
Subject: [Baren 15301] Re: Baren Digest V16 #1506 


I leave Thursday and want to carve .  I wonder is the salon des refuse" for 
flora on and what again is the size???  And am i in it??
Marilynn



End of Baren Digest V16 #1507
*****************************