Baren Digest               Tuesday, 19 June 2001       Volume 15 : Number 1462

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From: barebonesart <barebonesart@home.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:11:30 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14862] Re: Baren Digest V15 #1461 

I vote yes on Eli's e-bay suggestion. I am still sick to the tummy about
that arrogant (expletive deleted) Michael who is selling "prints" and
doesn't even know what one is. Aaaaaaargh.
Go for it, Eli!
Sharri

------------------------------

From: "bemason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:30:02 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14863] petition 

Jeanne,
I got a letter back from my whine to ebay saying too bad, let the buyer
beware....they don't guarantee anything..
See this article http://www.artbusiness.com/ebayitch.html
and you will see what we are up against. I think the positive information
sale on ebay is a better way to go.
Barbara

------------------------------

From: Marco Flavio Marinucci <marco@speedingbullet.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:35:28 -0800
Subject: [Baren 14864] information sheet 

hey guys,
as a very valid form of distribution there is also an Acrobat (PDF) document
dowloadable from barenforum. the print Alliance and anybody else who will
let us post it on their site. Any computer with a reader will open it.
People can get it for free (which means more will) and pass it along without
problem.
just my 2 cents.
Marco flavio

> From: owner-baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp
> Reply-To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp
> Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 05:25:15 +0900
> To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp
> Subject: Baren Digest V15 #1461
> 
> I don't know how to do it, but I've heard it's not very expensive:  What
> about a disc?  "The A - Z's Of Traditional Hand Pulled Prints"?
> You could load a disc with tons of info, examples, yada, yada, yada...
> inexpensively and shipping would be almost nada.
> My 2 cents.



------------------------------

From: barebonesart <barebonesart@home.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:18:42 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14865] Re: Baren Digest V15 #1461 

Sorry about the additional posting. But, I just ran across a brochure the
NWPC published a few years ago about the different orignal print processes.
We could up date it a little and it could be the item for sale at $1 to
cover postage, printing, handling, etc.  I wish I had time to take this on,
but not 'til next year. Maybe we could get someone from NWPC to do it -
Barbara and I could work that out. Count me as another $$ donor.
Sharri

------------------------------

From: GraphChem@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:51:03 EDT
Subject: [Baren 14866] Re: Eli's idea 

If you don't have someone capable to create a CD with the basic information, 
try contacting dan@dansabo.com. Dan Sabo is a printmaker, and has developed 
numerous printmaking websites (including ours). He is currently working on a 
CD type catalog of our products complete with artwork, ROM price list, color 
charts etc. If it can be done, Dan's the one who can do it.

Dean Clark


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From: Laohuxu@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:04:29 EDT
Subject: [Baren 14867] Trip to Estonia 

Hi everyone,

I'll be visiting Estonia for three weeks in June and July, and was wondering 
if anyone knows of any print- or paper-related places, exhibits, shops, etc. 
that I shouldn't miss. (Or anything else offbeat and essential!)

Thanks!

Best wishes,
Liz Horton


------------------------------

From: GraphChem@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:27:57 EDT
Subject: [Baren 14868] Re: Trip to Estonia 

Too bad on the timing. Estonia is practically across the street from Finland, 
and at the of August (8/30-9/1) the IMPACT show will be held in Helsinki. 
This show was in Bristol, England two years ago. It's patterned on the 
Southern Graphics model. There are several suppliers, including Graphic 
Chemical, that will be attending. Before the show, Graphic will have 
representatives in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France and Lithuania contacting 
customers and potential customers. Any suggestions on others we should visit 
would be greatly appreciated.

Dean



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From: Printmaker <severn@acay.com.au>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:05:01 +1000
Subject: [Baren 14869] Ebay 

Hi all

I agree totally with Eli's idea, good man! Print Australia
is also at your disposal with this. The guy from world
printmakers (Michael?) has been very vocal about this too.
How about we rope him in as well and maybe go whole hog and
rope in all the people on Prints-L and Paper-L too?

Thinking of Graham's page on Glicee - maybe a general 'add'
that everyone with a website could include on their site
too... 

Barbara, can you cross post this to PA too please?
Josephine

------------------------------

From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:33:20 -1000
Subject: [Baren 14870] Re: petition 

Thanks Barbara, this was an interesting article,

   There is a lot that I like about eBay.
   Having said that, here is a little perspective on eBay's problem. As an
object conservator with over 20 years of experience, I have acquired a
knowledge base of a very wide range of art objects. Although I am by no
means an expert in most of these categories, I have at least enough
knowledge in materials and styles to do rudimentary evaluations of a lot of
different kinds of art. From time to time, I scan through eBay, looking for
objects for restoration for resale. In virtually every category of art that
I have looked through, there are a very large quantity of misrepresentations
and outright fakes. In some of the areas that I am very familiar with, I
would say that by far the majority of the objects listed are either grossly
over hyped, or are completely misidentified. It is also very easy to
identify individuals that are making a regular business of purchasing new
items, and posting them on eBay with improper identifications and date of
manufacture, listed one right after another.
    EBay has always stated that their policy is pretty much "hands off"
concerning their sellers, that they are just offering a venue for private
buyers and sellers to connect. It is unfortunate, though not at all
surprizing that a large number of unscrupulous sellers are taking advantage
of a huge customer base of largely unknowledgable collectors. The problem is
so rampant on eBay, that I cannot imagine how they could possible even begin
to tackle it, and I'm sure that they are not too interested in posting lots
of warnings about it on their site, and scaring off customers. Also
remember, eBay takes their small cut of each of those sales, even the bad
ones.
   It might be interesting to see what an information sale on eBay would do,
but I wonder if people shopping for bargain prints to decorate with are
really going to be interested in purchasing information that they may not
really care to know. After all, the information is already out there, and if
these customers have not made any efforts to educate themselves by now
before spending their hard earned dollars, I wonder... As for putting the
unscrupulous sellers on eBay out of business, it's a little like emptying
the ocean with a bucket.

Jack

bemason wrote:

> Jeanne,
> I got a letter back from my whine to ebay saying too bad, let the buyer
> beware....they don't guarantee anything..
> See this article http://www.artbusiness.com/ebayitch.html
> and you will see what we are up against. I think the positive information
> sale on ebay is a better way to go.
> Barbara


------------------------------

From: "Bill H Ritchie Jr" <ritchie@seanet.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:58:11 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14871] Re: Dan's 2 cent disc idea charset="iso-8859-1" 

Hi bareners -

All fired up over the print education problem? This is understandable.

Pretend I'm an old timer--been around long enough to see a pile of
brochures, books, movies, lawsuits, etc. to know it's never ending.

Dan is right, discs are easy to "burn", lightweight, standardized for
mailing. You get AOL free CD's all the time, right?

I think Dan's idea is best, although printed matter seems to have favor.

It will take time, but baren has an edge, since this group is shall we say,
specialized somewhat, somewhat "niched" and "narrow-marketed."

I am finishing testing my sixth disc, based on the DVD format. I've been
working on them for six months as part of my own 40-year retrospective.

I'm still learning things--hence the "tests". I feel like a law student
getting ready for my BAR.

I've hated doing it alone, but I know more people in the arts will be using
DVD. I think it's better than CD/ROM, but most people disagree with me
because more people have CD/ROMs and they run on Internet browsers.

However, I see the sales of DVDs taking over the VHS Movie market, and
companies like Blockbusters renting DVD players instead of VCRs.

It's just a matter of time until individual artists are sending out DVDs
instead of slides to shows and galleries.

In Seattle, for example, the local organization that gives biannual grants
to artists already bought DVD players for their PC systems because they know
artists--especially performance artists--are gearing up for DVD.

The nice thing is, too, that if you can do something cool in 6-seconds (like
I'm trying to do, teacher that I am) such as apply ink to a block, it can be
put on the web in various motion/audio formats. You've probably got greeting
cards like this from people attached to your e-mail and running under
RealPlayer or whatever.

With all this, you can tell my passion for printmaking is spilling over to
the lower forms of art, like digital. :)

- - Bill


------------------------------

From: Aqua4tis@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:23:15 EDT
Subject: [Baren 14872] Re: Eli's idea 

hi barbara and everyone
   i just wanted to say that im in favor of this whole thing    and i think 
joining up with another group is a good idea as well    as a printmaker   id 
like to have some clear cut definitions as well
georga


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From: FurryPressII@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:22:40 EDT
Subject: [Baren 14873] Re: giclees advertising & Barensuji contributions 

friend don't let friends do giclees

john of the furry press

------------------------------

From: Bossbumpy@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:28:01 EDT
Subject: [Baren 14874] Re: Giclee on e-bay 

I vote yes, and I'll put my money where my mouth is.  But how many $s are 
needed?

Tim Scott

------------------------------

From: ArtfulCarol@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:43:17 EDT
Subject: [Baren 14875] Re: "Japanese Print Making" by Toshi Yoshida 

Marco
 Try to get a copy of the printmaking book you want from the Public Library, 
especially since you are in San Francisco. They may have an inter-library 
loan system. That is how I have borrowed many out of print woodblock  books.
Carol

------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:36:24 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14876] more on giclees charset="iso-8859-1" 

As I battle these beasts every art festival I attend, I also believe that
education is the key. However, education must always be given with kid
gloves and a true love for the craft, otherwise, to the uninformed, it all
sounds like "buy my snake-oil, not theirs."

Here is something that everyone can do right now, and some states are making
laws about this: slap a certificate of authenticity on the back of every
print you make available to the public. The unsuspecting buyer turns it
around and sees things like: "block cancelled", "edition hand-printed by the
artist", "Magnani Incisioni paper, cherrywood block" and so on... They are
intrigued... they ask the magic question: "what does this mean?"
THEN! you grab them by the throat (very gently) and shove a ready-made "what
is a print" pamphlet down their gullets (also very gently). Their eyes widen
(due to lack of oxygen, no doubt) and they are AMAZED! Wow! they are holding
a PRINT hand-printed by a lowly artist! Low and behold, and now they can
tell all their friends how much they know about printmaking...

I offer some points to ponder in the name of the crusade:

- -The "enemy" are not only dealers and peddlers of ill repute, but also the
multi-million dollar printing industry and, most importantly...our sister
and brother artists who have invested heavily and see this venue as their
only way to make ends meet. Right they are, too, because selling $50-300
iris prints is a heck of a lot easier than selling $2,500-10,000 original
watercolors, paintings, or whathaveyous (especially whathaveyous). Not every
artist is a printmaker able to make multiples or can afford real lithograph
reproductions of their paintings.

- -Many more people than you may think aren't confused at all, they simply
want a blue/teal semi-abstract for their wall and will buy whatever matches.
They know exactly what they are buying and don't really care that the inks
are fugitive or there are laser-printer lines across the piece because when
you back up enough, you can't see it. Not everyone is an art collector and
not everyone can, or wants to be convinced that collecting art is a superior
pursuit in life than decorating a home. And nobody that just spent $400 on a
giclee is going to sit still and listen to a lesson on printmaking.

- -Sometimes education doesn't take. Witness the multi-gazillion dollar weight
loss industry. In my past life, I was an Exercise Physiologist and ran a
rehab/fitness center. Righteous in nature, I could have screamed "exercise
more, eat less" until I was blue as I watched people waste thousands of
dollars on pills, protein diets, Tae-bo videos...
When you are battling capitalism at work, life can be very disappointing and
you can't really tell the public what to want. You can tell yourself that
you sleep at night, but rest assured, so does the inventor of the "cabbage
soup diet."

We can work with the system, offer a product, in this case
fine-original-hand-pulled-woodcut-prints and we can let the market decide. I
suggest we make 'em nice and spread 'em around. People really do like them
better.

Health to all,
Maria



------------------------------

From: Tariq and Princess Rashid <tprashid@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:37:57 -0400
Subject: [Baren 14877] Re: ebay offer boundary="------------A6A84286DFAAE3211C893D41" 


Princess here. I totally  agree on the need to  educate the public on the
difference between an original print and reproduction.  But I don't know if any
potential customers would be interested in buying that information even for a
dollar.  But I support the effort.... with my vote and checkbook...we must begin
somewhere.  Actually I see the real progress being made one customer at a
time... being informed by us at our shows, exhibits, conventions and art
fairs...etc.

Here's a quote from Ralph Mayer's ,The Artist's Handbook of Materials and
Techniques.


 "In fine arts, graphic arts designates all processes for the production of
multiple-proof pictures on paper on a handmade basis, the work being done either
wholly or in most part by the  original artists, and editions limited. Prints
are made either in black and white or in multiple color impressions and the
individual copies or proofs may be signed and numbered by the artist in pencil
on the lower margin. Making an impression is called pulling a proof.  The term
"graphic arts" excludes all forms of mechanically reproduced works photographed
or redrawn on plates; all processes in which the artist did not participate to
his or her fullest capacity are reproductions.  The standard name for an
artist's proof is original print.
So-called "art prints" or limited edition" posters are often catchwords that
signify high-speed machine-printed reproductions, and have little or nothing to
do with an artist's creative use of the printmaking mediums." pg 574

I'm a printmaker as well as a painter.  But I think the public is really
confused about the whole thing....prints or reproductions...especially when it
comes to prices. Each hand pulled proof is an original print and should cost
more than the reproduction (copy) of that same image..Just like the original
painting should cost more than reproductions (off-set lithography, giclees,
etc...) of it.  But when you start talking about computer-generated images and
even off-set lithography (lithography is a printmaking process) , even I get
confused.  But I better figure out an explanation before my first show.
- --
One of the reasons I was attracted to printmaking in the first place is because
I could make images that I could price reasonably and make assessible to more
people than possible with painting. And I rather sell a print than a
poster...there's nothing more irritating than seeing a $20 poster in a $100
frame.  But to get people to really see the difference we need to communicate to
them...make them part of the process.

Sorry for the ramble,

Princess

bemason wrote:

> So far there are three yes and one no vote on this idea of Eli's. Before we
> involve baren in any possible backlash from rash action, or in this case
> very planned action we need to hear more votes.
> Four people cannot speak for such a large group so if you have a feeling
> about this, please let it be known.
>
> In case you missed the email, the idea is to put a page on ebay selling
> informaiton on how to tell a real print and what a giclee really is, most of
> the information will truly be in the discription of the item for sale, but
> we will have to have a   nice little info sheet done up in case anyone
> actually buys one. We can start the price at $1 and as we have more than one
> it can be marketed this way. We should be able to pay for xeroxing and
> stamps by  donation or sales. This would be a chance to spread correct
> information but we need imput from the membership.
>
> Thanks,
> Barbara


------------------------------

From: "bemason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:19:12 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14878] Re: more on giclees 

Maria,
I agree totally with you, the authenticity statement is required in Oregon
so we always use one. Not so in other states, but everyone should make one
up. You are in a wonderful position to educate and we all do our part
wherever we are. The number of people we could reach on ebay is unbelievable
and if we never sold one pamphlet, we could get our message out to hundreds
of thousands of people by describing our pamphlet in detail.

We want to approach this carefully if we proceed. I have sent an email to
Carol Pulin at the American Print Alliance to see if there is interest in
partnering with Baren. The American Print Alliance is an organization of
organizations, the NW Print council belongs as well as the Southern Graphics
Council and many others. Individual printmakers also belong.
http://www.printalliance.org
 There seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for doing something. Lets think about
it for a few days and discuss it again in a week or so.
I loved John's email about friends not letting friends make giclees....I
almost fell off my chair laughing.
Barbara


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>

> As I battle these beasts every art festival I attend, I also believe that
> education is the key. However, education must always be given with kid
> gloves and a true love for the craft, otherwise, to the uninformed, it all
> sounds like "buy my snake-oil, not theirs."
>
> Here is something that everyone can do right now, and some states are
making
> laws about this: slap a certificate of authenticity on the back of every
> print you make available to the public. The unsuspecting buyer turns it
> around and sees things like: "block cancelled", "edition hand-printed by
the
> artist", "Magnani Incisioni paper, cherrywood block" and so on... They are
> intrigued... they ask the magic question: "what does this mean?"
> THEN! you grab them by the throat (very gently) and shove a ready-made
"what
> is a print" pamphlet down their gullets (also very gently). Their eyes
widen
> (due to lack of oxygen, no doubt) and they are AMAZED! Wow! they are
holding
> a PRINT hand-printed by a lowly artist! Low and behold, and now they can
> tell all their friends how much they know about printmaking...




------------------------------

From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:26:52 -1000
Subject: [Baren 14879] Re: more on giclees 

I agree with Maria, if I understand her correctly. Instead of taking the time
to come up with some snazzy information to sell, spend the time to make more
prints, better prints, and flood the market with real art. Heck, offer your own
prints on eBay, along with your "real prints" spiel, and everyone can read it
for free! Imagine... "What I am offering here is a real woodblock print, hand
pulled by the well known artist Maria Arango, member of the prestigious Baren
printmakers group (link here)..."

Jack

Maria Arango wrote:

>
> ...We can work with the system, offer a product, in this case
> fine-original-hand-pulled-woodcut-prints and we can let the market decide. I
> suggest we make 'em nice and spread 'em around. People really do like them
> better.


------------------------------

From: "Jean Eger" <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:58:26 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14880] E-Bay charset="iso-8859-1" 

We could ask E-Bay to have a separate section for original fine art prints,
which would exclude giclee prints.
Jean Eger Womack
http://www.jeaneger.com

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End of Baren Digest V15 #1462
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