Baren Digest               Monday, 30 April 2001       Volume 15 : Number 1405


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From: "Gillyin Gatto" <gillying@Maineline.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:39:05 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14282] language usage/ respectful behavior on Baren/paper rolls 

hello to bareners    i personally am not trying to "beat-up-on" Alan or 
anyone...  i think we need clarity on how we speak to each other  and  all
this is, as always, IMHO.....         the point of the ' public display' as
Garth called it   is to let every barener know that sexist language is not
appropriate  to use in talking about the how of woodcuts-which is what i am
most interested in also and the purpose of our forum.....  the comment was
made  publicly- so the  response  was also .   it is not appropriate to put
women down intentionally or otherwise. if someones does not know they have
done this,  then it is up to us, as women, to tell them.   i believe he was
told in a kind way      if we dont speak out publically when that happens,
then the assumption is, that it IS ok ...     actually i never read the
comment, as it was in the context of something  i was just skimming  -
the only way i knew of it was Wanda's  reply,  so i was glad that she made
it.what IS the moderator's job , if  not to  make sure we keep  it  on the
up&up ?
    i dont believe it is" violent" to let someone know  that what they are
saying is sexist  and demeaning  -it is simply informing them .    it is
hard to believe,  really, that one could be living on the same planet as the
rest of us,  and not know   that  we as a society  have supposedly raised
our consciousness enough to consider sexist language  inapproprite in any
context.but if they- he or she-  truly do not know ,  i feel they should be
told right up front and out in the open.   it is not a question of right
/wrong   or  righteousness ,    it is about  self respect,   and respectful
behavior towards others.  not to call a person on it,  is to condone it  .
no one has asked for more apologies ,  only thanked Alan for the one he gave
   as a woman   who  lived thru the 60's-70's-80's  as each so called
minority group struggled (and still struggle) to get simple rights and
respect,   one might well ask  -how many times do we have to call men on
their sexist   behaviour  before they finally stop?

    thanks to Alan for the butcher's paper suggestion -one can probably even
order it from a farm supply or hardware catalog    other useful paper that
can be had almost free are rolls of newsprint     i buy the ends of rolls
from a local  newspaper  printer for 14 cents a pound   they are 3 feet wide
and  invaluable for proofing and many other  uses-gillyin  machias maine usa

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From: barebonesart <barebonesart@home.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 12:30:26 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14283] Re: Baren Digest v15 #1404 

To whomever brought up the Bosnias of the human spirit and how to get out of
them. We just go and we're gone and we don't look back. (The collective we -
not the royal -)

 I haven't had time to try out waterbase roll-up ink for the transfer of
image, however, I see no reason, theoretically, that it wouldn't work. It
could then be washed off the blocks with soap and water and the block would
be free to use with the transparent-pigment-in-rice-paste inks. I have used
this method with oil based inks for prints using 10 - 12 blocks with perfect
registration - the only time I've mis-registered it was an operator problem,
not a block problem :>) I advocate using the print paper to transfer the
image as it considers the stretch of the paper you're using and accounts for
it, versus using waxed, tracing, butcher or newsprint. But, to each his own
- - these are all good ideas to try. Ultimately, we'll all use whatever works
for us. (collective us - not royal)  Whooooo boy.
Sharri



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From: Wanda <robertson@canby.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:50:16 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14284] Hanga transfer 

Anyone interested in learning the traditional method(s) of transfering key block
to color blocks in Hanga - just go to: http://barenforum.org  and go to the
library. Several of the books there explain the method in step-by-step detail.
Along with a lot of other excellent information if you are interested in learning
the Japanese woodblock methods.

I think transferring in the traditional western printing way - over to the 2nd
3rd.....however many blocks, even with roll-out waterbased ink would be
difficult. The ink would smear all over the place while you are trying to carve.
The (almost) traditional way I use is this:

1. carve image on key block
2. ink up key block with sumi/rice paste (including the carved-in-the-block
registration marks)
3. Print up several (more than you need) sumi paper prints. Or whatever kind of
paper you like to use. I've tried computer paper, but it wrinkles & is difficult
to peel of the back layers without removing everything.
4. Glue the key block prints face down on the fresh wood blocks with whatever
glue you prefer - I've used gum arabic, rice paste, & heard "yes" paste & white
(Elmer's) glue suggested.
5. Let dry & start carving. If you try to carve before it is dry, the paper will
just stick to your To & slide & tear all over the place. Don't ask me how I know!
:-) So, you are carving your image *and* your registration all into the same
block. You can't believe how accurate it can be, until you try it. And I do print
both hanga & western style & love both!

***************************************************************************************

Oh, and the royal "we" - hereafter I would like to be referred to as "Queen Wanda".
Haaahhahhahaha! Don't pick on my use of the English language unless you want me
to start correcting your spelling. :-) 

Wanda

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From: FurryPressII@aol.com
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:02:20 EDT
Subject: [Baren 14285] Re: Hanga transfer 

my spelling would keep you busy for a long time.

???
can you print Japanese method after you have printed a block using oil based 
ink?

Does the block get cut differently for the Japanese method??

john    


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From: Wanda <robertson@canby.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:21:15 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14286] Re: Hanga transfer 

FurryPressII@aol.com wrote:
> 
> my spelling would keep you busy for a long time.

Nah, your spelling doesn't bother me a bit. You *communicate* - it doesn't
require perfect spelling. 

> ???
> can you print Japanese method after you have printed a block using oil based
> ink?

You know, someone asked me this just the other day. And quite frankly, I haven't
tried to print an oil-base block as hanga or vice-versa. I'll have to try it &
see. I usually have a certain look in mind as I make the blocks & that determines
whether it gets printed as hanga or as oil-base. I know there are several
printmakers on here that use both methods - I'm sure someone has the answer to
your question. I don't know why it wouldn't work both ways - as some people seal
their hanga blocks with spar varnish & that is sure oil-based. I don't seal mine,
as the absorbency of the wood seems to make it easier to print with the
water-based pigments.

> 
> Does the block get cut differently for the Japanese method??

Mine don't. I would like to hear about other's experiences, though.

Wanda

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From: "bemason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:44:04 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14287] oil and water do mix 

The answer John, is yes, you can print water based ink over a block that has
been printed with oil based ink. If you have trouble getting the waterbased
ink to stick, you may have to sand the top of the block with 600 sandpaper
to open it up. The reason hanga prints as it does is the block absorbs a
certain amount of water and then stays at this absorbed state through the
printing. If your block was too saturated with oil, it might not work, but I
have used blocks both ways with no trouble. I have not printed hundreds of
copies, that might make a difference when going from oil to water.

Of course the easy thing is to just plan it to be a waterbased block, makes
everything go together with no extra stress. The only difference in cutting
is blocks that are printed with the hanga method are cut deeper. The oil
lays on top with an oil based ink and is usually rolled on so there is
little danger of getting ink into the crevices unless you are a using too
much ink. With hanga you are putting ink on the block with a brush and it is
getting down in the cuts. If they are too shallow the paper will pick up the
ink. Trial and error for me, I learned after the first one that areas that
were very open on the plate needed to be pretty deep. Somewhere in the
encyclopedia there is a measurement for this. If you haven't read it, go
there and start. Once you get all that helpful info, you will be better
armed but have more questions. Then ask away.
Best to all,
Barbara





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From: Alan <amills@mac.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:25:34 -0700
Subject: [Baren 14288] Re: oil and water do mix 

John wrote.....
>can you print Japanese method after you have printed a
>block using oil based ink?
Barbara wrote.....
>The answer John, is yes, you can print water based ink over a block that has
>been printed with oil based ink. If you have trouble getting the waterbased
>ink to stick, you may have to sand the top of the block with 600 sandpaper
>to open it up.

Sanding is only part of the answer....
Rice paste or cornstarch paste is needed.  Depending on how much oil 
based ink is on the plate will determine the need to use sandpaper. 
Without paste the water base ink will likely still bead. Oh, and 
always use a sanding block with a padded surface with this process. 
You would not want to accidentally score the plate with a sharp 
corner of the sanding block.

And by the way, a nice response Queen Wanda from the Oregon....  (<:
Is my apology accepted... you never acknowledged.

Gillyin wrote.....
>i personally am not trying to "beat-up-on" Alan or anyone...

And neither was I.....  (<:  Like the use of Fisherman, Chairman, old 
words that crop up and not in any was meant as a put 
down...............The phrase I used simple means one big SOB of a 
Print, nothing more and nothing less.

I would like to get dialogue on my question regarding aboriginal 
expropriation, which for some reason seemed to upset Dave Bull, it 
would be grand.  Here in Canada it is a real contentious issue and 
absolutely not acceptable by the establishment and certainly not by 
the native population.  To use the traditional designs or using the 
folk lore in writing for monetarily gain is doomed to failure. To 
even use a totum pole in a painting is risky.  I am quiet curious 
about why this is not the case in Japan and for that matter in other 
countries.  Are we the only nation that is up tight about the 
expropriation?

Alan

PS
For those interested I am having a web site done.  Look for it soon.



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From: FurryPressII@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 07:39:11 EDT
Subject: [Baren 14289] Re: oil and water do mix 

On the use of other images in printmaking?
    Before the modernist period in the west printmaking was mainly used for 
reproductive uses as it was part of the printing industry.  All most all wood 
engraving before 1880 was of a commercial nature.  Even earlier woodcuts and 
other printing matrixes were used to reproduce paintings for the commercial 
market.  Sometimes it was with the artists permission and sometimes not.  An 
example of it's use without permission goes all the way back to Albrect 
Durers time In Durer"s time you could use another's artist's image but not 
his trade mark or signature.  This was the key issue as the method of study 
at the time was to redo the masters work as a form of study.
    It was only in the period of modern art was "originality" the key thing.  
I feel they through out the baby with the bath water with that practice as we 
can learn more from the study of the techniques of the past than can be 
learned by ignoring them.  The skill of a formschnider wood cutter or 
Japanese wood carver can only be learned by practice cutting hundreds of 
blocks and it becomes second nature.  The modernist art historians say the 
skill has been lost I think not they just aren't looking under the manhole 
cover to find it.  The point is to learn the craftsmanship of the past and to 
put it to use in todays time frame.  What ever that might be.  Some Japanese 
prints have taken this path and some are following the older methods and 
subject matters which is as acceptable as any other path.  To me the biggest 
problem in American art education esp on the collage level is that they place 
way too much emphasis on being on the cutting edge of originality and way too 
little effort on learn the correct craftsmanship of the process.

john

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From: ArtfulCarol@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:55:34 EDT
Subject: [Baren 14290] Re: Lyons in Savannah 

Hi Y'all,
Here I am in Savannah and wondering if there are any Bareners in these parts. 
  It was great to meet you  and share info in San Francisco and NY.  And 
now?....

Carol Lyons of Irvington, NY

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End of Baren Digest v15 #1405
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