Baren Digest              Thursday, 15 March 2001      Volume 14 : Number 1355


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Claude Villeneuve <klaud@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:44:15 -0500
Subject: [Baren 13862] Re: Quasi question 

Dan:
Your plate is yours, you have the right to go back to it, re-work it as
much or as little as you like and make a new edition of it. It's as if
you had made a new plate. If you don't like the first edition you made,
just keep a few copies as a record and recycle the rest! (maybe you can
learn to make handmade paper and re-use it like Josephine Severn does.
I've started to do that too..)
Happy re-carving! You can't let an illumination go by without acting on
it! :>)

Claude Aimée

------------------------------

From: Claude Villeneuve <klaud@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:54:34 -0500
Subject: [Baren 13863] Re: Pochoir technique 

I can answer your phonetic questions on the pronunciation of Pochoir
since I am French speaking
I'll write out the sounds:   
PO: Poe (Like in Edgar Allan POE)  
CHOIR:  shwar = Poe SHWAR 

Does that help?

Claude Aimée

------------------------------



From: "Gillyin Gatto" <gillying@Maineline.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:48:01 -0800
Subject: [Baren 13865] wood grain 

for Dan Dew  -  for the most prominent / least work to obtain  and longest
lasting sharpness in printing    i  vote for OAK
check out  the loons at
http;//www.gattowoodcuts.com/Birds%20and%20Animals.htm
and  also   a print called Bonding   at
http;//www.gattowoodcuts.com/Figures.htm    these blocks are solid oak     i
have yet to try a veneer  in it  -   good  luck  -   and now   i think i'll
try doing  some fir the way Grahm did in the  boat print-  very  nice
....i also greatly enjoyed looking at Maria's new prints    very  inspiring
i love the way you see the images in the grain  thanks  --Gillyin in MAINE

------------------------------



From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:05:46 -0800
Subject: [Baren 13867] Hori-Dai 


A private post which asked about availablility of my hori-dai
In the event others want to know I post there here for your edification.

Frank Trueba wrote.....
>Hi,
>I'm a new member of the forum.
>Your hori-dai carving table is the best thing I've seen.
>Thanks for sharing.
>Did you buy it and if so, where? (I'd love to get one).
>

Dear Frank,
Necessity is the mother of invention as they say.

I developed this to prevent posture problems for myself.
At the senior citizen stage one comes to understand that one is not infallible

You can see the construction of it on the web site.
If you cannot find someone to make it then I could make one up for you
$35.00 USD plus shipping

Graham

------------------------------

From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:23:57 -0800
Subject: [Baren 13868] Re: Paper moistening ... 

>Graham added:
>>  The wetness of papers differ depending on the paper you are using.
>>  Hosho paper requires much much less moisture than discribed by Julio.
>...
>  > ie.  Shin Torinoko should be soaked in a tub of water, overnight is
>  > good. then place in a damp box.
>
>Graham says "requires much much less moisture than described by Julio"
>but then goes on to suggest putting the paper in a tub of water
>overnight.

I should clearify that all paper is not made equal  ........

I think you misread my posting.
I clearly defined Shin Torinoke is a machine made High Alpha paper 
and is very hard.
If you don't soak it overnight then when you print, the pressure 
needed to get a none speckle lay of ink is more that I am able to, or 
care to, assert with a baren. The soaking makes it a softy and we all 
like softies....(I guess that's debatable)

Since Julio discribe how to stack the paper, I did not carry on to 
repeat what happens after the Torinoko is removed from the water. I 
doubt that anyone would think that it comes straight out of the water 
and onto the inked block.... but I think you did by virtue of your 
statement.....
>I can't sit here and let this go by; recommending to the world at large
>to soak the printing paper this much is simply inviting disaster.

For clarification.
Remove all excess water from the surface with paper towel and place 
it in the damp box.
It's interesting to note that this formula comes from a Noboru Sawai 
(printmaker for 30 years) who learned it from the great Japanese 
printmaker Toshi Hoshida.  I don't see how this would  not be an 
acceptable technique.

>Too much water in the paper ... or on the block ... or in the brush ...
>too much water _anywhere_ is fatal to control of a clean printing
>impression. If it happens to be that blurred and soggy-looking colours
>are what your designs need, then the 'tub' technique is presumably one
>way to get them, but if you happened to be looking for crisp clean
>colour, then you have to keep the water down.

Interesting.... Have you been reading "Wet-in-Wet" Page 54 in my book 
Watercolor and How?
It is a definitive explanation of painting on a wet surface and the 
same is true with printing on a wet surface.  Artists that have 
worked in watercolours know it ain't gonna work.

>Perhaps the best way (in words) I can describe a normally moistened
>sheet of hosho paper is to compare it to a shirt that has just come out
>of the spin dryer,

All spin drying cycles are not made equal.

>_Understand_ your options, and then choose the method best for you. You
>cannot make blanket recommendations when it comes to things like this.
>Or is that what I just did?  :-)

Yes that is right, another way of saying what Noboru Sawai stated.
"you have to experiment if you use papers other than what you are 
familiar with."

Experiment and Risk taking is key in the creative process.
Without risk, all is just a facsimile of what has been done before.

Graham/Victoria BC
An Island in the Pacific
Home of the Boot Camp


Learn the rules thoroughly
so you can violate them intelligently later.


------------------------------

From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:47:33 -0600
Subject: [Baren 13869] Re: Paper moistening ...oops 03/14/2001 12:47:22 PM 

I forgot to mention the paper I use....my method works well with Rives
light and Rives medium...I consider these to be
good  "learning" inexpensive papers for hanga, having a similar feel &
texture to low-end japanese papers.  They are no comparison to the japanese
mulberry and hosho papers but serve well for proofs and personal work. My
latest print was on Rives KFC medium and it was a lot heavier paper....not
so good for hanga.

For comparison I threw in four sheets of Mr. Yamaguchi's hand-made hosho
paper (available thru BarenMall) into my stack and although they printed
really well...there was lot of print-thru on the backside....too much
pressure used while printing and also the paper was a bit on the wet side.
This is the choice paper for serious hanga.

There are so many variables in play that you really need to experiment with
whatever paper you have and adjust accordingly....

julio





------------------------------

From: barebonesart <barebonesart@home.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:39:24 -0800
Subject: [Baren 13870] Re: Baren Digest v14 #1353 

Nilsa, 
You only need enough room to sit and you're in business. I take small things
to work on when I travel, and carve in my hotel room. I try to clean up the
shavings, but I'm sure the maids wonder what it in the world went on in that
room. I tried taking an 18 x 24 block I was working on on one trip and that
proved to be a little large for easy traveling. I do concur with those who
suggest sitting at a table, tho, but maybe that's my age showing! The floor?
You've got to be kidding!!(Actually, I could do that, it would be getting up
again that would be the problem - and the days spent recuperating -)

To throw my two-bits worth in the wood grain discussion: I use a wire brush
on the block before I start carving, if I want the wood grain pronounced.
Brush with the grain, of course, and then seal with a weak varnish (50/50).
Have also used multiple blocks, as I believe Maria suggested, in fact  in
one print I used just the plain block  with its grain (it is soooo gorgeous)
for a blended sky, then turned it over and carved it to print the rest of
the image.

Dan, you can correct, or add to, or take away from any print at any time.
All you have to do is label it State II, III, IV etc. I know several people
who do beautiful involved prints that are editioned at various states
throughout their evolution. This way if they go too far, they still have an
edition they're happy with. A little insurance policy, if you will.

Happy Printing -
Sharri



------------------------------

From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:17:18 -0800
Subject: [Baren 13871] Re: Paper moistening ...oops 

Yes thats for sure Julio....

>
>There are so many variables in play that you really need to experiment with
>whatever paper you have and adjust accordingly....
>

Sometime between now and then.... (Boot Camp)  I will be 
experimenting with several papers and will get back with a report. 
The suggestions are bits and piece that Noboru Sawai has doled out 
over the past years and I have never had time to experiment.... other 
than the creation of images.

I personally would like to find an alternative.  I hate the idea of 
having to rely upon one or two Japanese suppliers and who can't 
transact business in English.  Huge market yet here and they don't 
seem to be very anxious. ... well tha'ts another thread.
They do not have merchant accounts with Visa or MasterCard... go figure.

Also I am concerned about the feed back re the quality of Yamaguchi paper.

Graham

------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:42:38 -0800
Subject: [Baren 13872] RE: suppliers charset="iso-8859-1" 

> I personally would like to find an alternative.  I hate the idea of
> having to rely upon one or two Japanese suppliers and who can't
> transact business in English.  Huge market yet here and they don't
> seem to be very anxious. ... well tha'ts another thread.
> They do not have merchant accounts with Visa or MasterCard... go figure.

Thus the beauty of the Baren Mall. We bridge that gap, provide our members
with low cost yet good quality Japanese supplies, and a little goes to Baren
in order to fund the web site, the forum, exhibitions, exchanges, and
anything else that benefits our members.
Having the mall up and running for a couple of months, I can tell you that
it is not easy to export small quantities of anything to the states. There
are many times prohibitive shipping charges. Most of all, when money does
change hands, everyone involved wants a small chunk of it (sending bank or
Post Office, receiving bank, exhange %, import/export charges, etc.). It's a
darned crime!
The reason that many foreign merchants don't take credit cards is that the
credit card processing company takes a rather large chunk for international
transactions (in addition to their usual % and per transaction fees). It is
not viable for a small merchant to absorb all these charges and still keep
prices reasonable. There is also a larger possibility of credit card fraud
that cannot easily be recovered by the companies. How and at what cost would
a merchant in Japan recover goods purchased with a bad credit card? So many
cc processing companies stay out of international transactions.

> Also I am concerned about the feed back re the quality of Yamaguchi paper.

April, JD, Julio, Lynita and two former BootCampers have tried it. Maybe
they can report since they have used other papers as well. Also, if you are
_that_ concerned (why are you so concerned, anyway? second time you mention
this issue), why not try some and report back to everyone at the forum? We
can use all the expertise in the forum to make sure that products that are
available in the Baren Mall remain of the best quality.

There is a plan to offer shina and cherry plywood through the mall, but the
shipping is holding us back a bit right now since it nearly doubles the cost
of the wood.

Maria

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>



------------------------------

From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 14:20:29 -0600
Subject: [Baren 13873] Re: Paper alternatives.... 03/14/2001 02:20:17 PM 

Living where I do (Chicago area), I am somewhat spoiled by all the
resources available nearby. Not only a wealth of museums, galleries and
libraries but also stores catering specifically to the printmaker. Of
course I am talking about grand institutions like Graphic Chemical & Ink
and Aiko's....both around for decades and both going the extra mile for us
little folks.
Each carries a huge variety of printmaking papers too large to mention
here.  Give them a ring.

http://www.graphicchemical.com/   - Dean Clark

Aiko's Art Materials Import, Inc.,3347 N. Clark St.,Chicago, IL 60657,TEL:
(773) 404-5600

There's also another way to sample a variety of hand-made japanese paper
directly from Japan and that is of course thru your very own
BarenMall....you can select one or as many sheets as you want to sample and
via the magic that Maria, David and the vendors have created....the paper
will arrive at your doorstep within a few days. No translation needed, VISA
happily accepted.

http://barenforum.org/mall/index.html


I have only used a couple of sheets from my fresh batch of Yamaguchi
paper...it printed great. Really good absorption of the pigment thru the
fibers. Will report back when more is used....in the meantime I can see
that is quite comparable in feel, texture, color and handling as that used
by John Amoss, David Bull, Graham Scholes, Lynita Shimizu and other hosho
users here....how can I tell ?  I used their prints from previous Baren
exchanges to compare to my new batch....

Julio (Skokie, Illinois)
ps. yes Barry...you are right....the Rives and the Rives BFK are the
original...the KFC is a little crispier paper...I say extra-crispy.  Same
good product....just a different flavor.  {;-)







------------------------------

From: amoss@mindspring.com (John Amoss)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:32:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baren 13874] Rives vs. Yamaguchi 

Julio wrote:
>I forgot to mention the paper I use....my method works well with Rives
>light and Rives medium...I consider these to be
>good  "learning" inexpensive papers for hanga, having a similar feel &
>texture to low-end japanese papers.  They are no comparison to the japanese
>mulberry and hosho papers but serve well for proofs and personal work.

I agree with Julio about Rives heavyweight as a good learning paper for
hanga. As a cheap alternative, I liked it better than the Shin Torinoko
which is a pretty "hard" paper.

Since I was running out of money and good hosho, I used Rives Heavy for the
the #9 exchange. Initially, it took the pigment pretty well as it seemed to
have a good sizing and layed down just fine. It had a quality of fluffiness
that I enjoy and unlike the Yamaguchi, I appreciated having the same finish
on both sides.

Unfortunately, it was not as "stable" as the mulberry papers and seemed to
grow in one dimension. This effect was particularily evident as the
keyblock was my first and last impressions (I'll explain why later).
Anyway, after 11 colors, the keyblocks did not line up- not even close.

I don't believe this was a result of the paper growing as a because of
re-introducing moisture to it while printing since the growth was only in
the one direction (I was rubbing top/bottom). I believe the Rives is
mould-made so that there shouldn't be a "grain" to explain this. I think
that it may be due to the shorter fibers used in western papers which
allowed my baren to spread the sheet out.

In addition, I'd like to add that the Rives also required a backing sheet
to keep the fibers from pilling on the back- something I have lately
managed to avoid with the Yamaguchi.

Matt Brown swears by the stuff. I admit that I sweared AT it a little, but
then again, it is sooo much cheaper and if registration is not absolutely
critical, it makes for a great alternative.


-John A.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
       AMOSS ILLUSTRATION, INC.
    (706)549-4662 FAX(706)549-3962
         amoss@mindspring.com
       www.mindspring.com/~amoss
365 Ponderosa Dr.,Athens, GA 30605 USA



------------------------------

From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:22:48 -0800
Subject: [Baren 13875] Re: Rives vs. Yamaguchi 

>John wrote.....
>Unfortunately, it was not as "stable" as the mulberry papers and seemed to
>grow in one dimension. This effect was particularily evident as the
>keyblock was my first and last impressions (I'll explain why later).
>Anyway, after 11 colors, the keyblocks did not line up- not even close.

As I read this I immediately thought of the happening when rolling out dough.

How did you solve the line-up/register or are you just living with it.?

I am hoping that the experiment that I am going to try is the answer.
At any rate I talked with Frank Jansen who is a graduate of Tamarind
He has some ideas and wants to work with me on this.

Graham


------------------------------

From: Sunnffunn@aol.com
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:24:08 EST
Subject: [Baren 13876] Re: Baren Digest v14 #1353 



Sharri the statement about taking an edition as you go with a block is 
something I have begun.  I work sort of by feel with this carving stuff and 
never preplan everything, so once in awhile i loose a print because i have 
gone too far.  If I have printed at least a small edition than I have 
something from all that hard work.  I have one piece that I printed as a line 
drawing, than carved out some and printed it and than it was a very drastic 
carving and I had a beautiful landscape with white fluffy clouds.  I than 
have no fear I will loose it all .  The middle group I trashed, they were not 
so good and I did not like anything to be too close to another part of the 
editiions.  So I have a state 1 and a state 2  group of prints,
Marilynn


------------------------------

From: "JD Roehrig" <jd423@zianet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 14:38:42 -0700
Subject: [Baren 13877] Re: suppliers charset="iso-8859-1" 

To All,
In completing my Exchange 8 prints, I placed some different papers in my wet
stack.
Included in these different papers were some Yamaguchi obtained last summer
from
Graham at Boot Camp and some of the recent Baren Mall shipment.  These
papers all
preformed at the same outstanding level of clarity, of pigment absorption,
durability,
no sticking or peeling and that beautiful soft texture.  And as to my test
ask any of
last years Boot Campers as to the amount of pressure I apply to a paper,
especially
with my John Root Baren.  I trashed some of my Masa paper with the Ball
Bearing
Baren so I will need to work on this one.  Remember that this is my opinion
and
observations, I will state that I observed no difference in the two
Yamaguchi papers.
'Till then,
JD Roehrig
Lincoln County, New Mexico
USA


------------------------------

From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:46:06 -0800
Subject: [Baren 13878] Re: suppliers 



Well for starters nobody responded.
I was hoping a member from Japan would have some experience.
This problem is very recent and the answer or response would have to 
come from some one in Japan that has purchase a recent batch of paper.
I think the paper Barbara got was made ... just a guess...  2 months 
ago or maybe longer.
I know the last time I ordered my paper it took 3 months to make and ship.

I have requested a sample from Monsato. No feedback yet.

Does this explain my anxiety?

Graham

------------------------------

From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:04:23 -0500
Subject: [Baren 13879] Re: Paper moistening ... charset=ISO-8859-1 

Graham,

Paper moistening aside, you have mentioned your instructor Noboru Sawai
quite a number of times over the years.    Is he an artist/carver/printer=

like yourself, or a carver/printer for others?    Your constant mention o=
f
him piques my curiousity as to whether he has any of his work on the web.=
  =

 Where  might we see some of it?    Do you have any there you can take a
digital pic of and put up on your site?  I'd be interested to see it,
particularly if his work is anything like Toshi Yoshida's.   Was there a
stylistic influence there as well or strictly technical?   Was he an arti=
st
in training or carver/printer in training at the Yoshida Studio?   I'd be=

interested in hearing more about him.

Gary
KC



------------------------------

From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:31:45 -0800
Subject: [Baren 13880] About Noboru Sawai 

Noboru is an artist/carver/printer and taught at University of 
Calgary for 25 years
He goes to Japan once a year to maintain his connections and makes 
his own paper.
No.... he won't  sell any although I keep working on him.
None of his work that I have seen is like Toshi Yoshida.
His present work is mostly a combination of engraving and woodblock 
and has been for quite a long time .  He has had exibitions in many 
countries in Europe and numerous in Japan.
Kind of work ? .... mostly erotica.
He does not and is not interested in Galleries.  To many bad 
experiences I think.
I will ask him if it is OK to snap some of his work.... I have a 9 
pieces and saving for more.

I will see if you will send a CV to me.

Graham





------------------------------

From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:54:09 -0500
Subject: [Baren 13881] About Noboru Sawai charset=ISO-8859-1 

Thanks,  Graham.   Looking forward to seeing some of his work.

Gary

------------------------------

From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:11:55 +0900
Subject: [Baren 13882] Re: Yamaguchi-san's paper 

Graham wrote:
> I was hoping a member from Japan would have some experience.

Forgotten my name, Graham? A while back you referred to me as 'that guy
in Tokyo' ... It seems that you've forgotten some of the basic things
your mother taught you (or should have taught you).

But you want some comments from an expert on the question of
Yamaguchi-san's paper? OK, I'll bite - I guess I'm a 'heavy user'. I
sent out just under 2,500 prints last year (down around 1,000 from the
year before), so I have a fair amount of experience with it, as well as
that made by Iwano Ichibei, generally considered to be the 'number one'
man here these days.

The condition of any particular sheet of paper of the kind we are
talking about depends on quite a large number of factors.

- - the quality of the raw kozo (mulberry) which which it was made. This
in turn depends greatly on the weather conditions that prevailed during
the growing season of the plant. Too hot, too cold, too dry, too wet,
etc. etc. can all affect the growth of the plant fibres.

- - the type of kozo used. In years where the local (Japanese) crop is of
poor quality (or non-existent), mulberry is imported from Taiwan and/or
China. The quality varies very widely.

- - the quality of the 'tororo-ai' used in its manufacture. This is the
stringy glutinous plant extract used in the 'vat' along with the
mulberry. Mulberry alone will not form sheets of paper when rocked ... 
The same point about weather, etc.etc. apply here too, although not to
as great a degree as with the kozo.

- - the temperature, and humidity that prevailed during the time that the
paper was made. From way back, it has been recognized that paper made in
winter, when the water is extremely cold, is much finer paper than that
made in warmer times. It's apparently not just a matter of having to
work fast (in summer) before the liquid mix starts to rot - I understand
that the way the fibres lock together is quite different in winter.
Winter paper is better, period. For many years now, I have always
scheduled my paper orders so that my paper is made in winter. It's a
problem for the papermakers, because all their clients who understand
the difference ask for the same thing. 

- - of course the skill of the man standing at the vat has an enormous
influence. My print output is not always as consistent as I would hope -
some of the prints are simply not as well made as others. I'm human. So
is the papermaker. If he is an extremely skilled artisan, the differences 
from sheet to sheet and from batch to batch will be minimal. But they 
_will_ still exist.

- - the sizing has a huge influence, and here I could repeat all those
previous points: the quality of the ingredients, the weather, and the
skill of the man doing the job. 

Anyway, I think the point is clear - handmade paper can vary within a
wide range. Graham mentioned that Arikushi-san had received some less
than perfect paper. Whether or not this was indicative of 'Yamaguchi-san
is no good', of whether the paper fell within the sort of variation I
have been talking about, I cannot say. 

That question can only be answered in time. If indeed Yamaguchi-san is
coming to the end of his paper-making career (he is in his 70's) it
would become apparent as more and more batches of inferior paper came
from his workshop. 

Is that happening? I'm not sure - I did have a difficult time with one
particular batch of paper of his paper I used last year, but the stuff I
am currently using is fine. This morning, I am wrapping up the final
printing on a batch of reprints of my Hyakunin Isshu series, and have no
reason not to send them out to the waiting collectors: the paper was
smooth and absorbent, the colours went in beautifully, and the finished
prints are fine.

We'll just have to see how it goes. It might also be worth mentioning
that this is really only a matter of time. Yamaguchi-san is getting
older day by day, and his son has not followed him into papermaking. The
workshop may close tomorrow, it may close five years from now, or
perhaps even later than that. But that it _will_ close, it seems beyond
doubt.

Dave


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End of Baren Digest v14 #1355
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