Baren Digest             Thursday, 16 November 2000     Volume 13 : Number 1216


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "C. L. Stevens" <clswdcut@intersurf.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:08:04 -0600
Subject: [Baren 12104] Editioning 

Lawrence,  Thanks so much!  I really keep learning and relearning new
things with this forum.  I had forgotten about the Dali prints.  No
wonder people feel less than friendly sometimes toward original art when
there are so many  scams!  I think each of us does have to wrestle with
his/her own needs.  Catherine

------------------------------

From: "J. Poutasse" <JPoutasse@spectrava.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:51:42 -0500
Subject: [Baren 12105] Introduction... charset="iso-8859-1" 

Hi,

I just wanted to post a quick intoduction to myself.
My name is Jackie and I'm a bookbinder/book artist in Virginia.
I've been interested in woodblock printing for a while now. 
I have assembled most of the tools I need. I found I had alot of them
already to hand. I thought I'd start small and make my first project a
holiday card but my ultimate goal is to create and illustrate small editions
of artist books.
I've been enjoying the web site and emails for about a week now and look
forward to participating in the conversations.

Jackie





------------------------------

From: Greg Carter <artfool@bulloch.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:32:58 -0500
Subject: [Baren 12106] Re: Editioning 

Just another voice on editioning.
I just ordered a Sue Coe print off the web for 30.00.  This is an amazing
price for such a famous artist.  It is an open edition were she simply
numbers them as she makes them(no bottom number) and estimates when the
edition might be closed.  It is a little less than others she has done
because it was a benifit print for a animal rights group.  Though this is
different from the prevaling  concept of editions today, this type of
edition assures the art buying public of affordible art by great artists(I
am very happy that I could afford mine).  The answer to the question is
still do what you think is best(I usually make editions of no more than 5
or 10 and dont even edition them most of the time)  but some artists choose
to use the multible quality of prints not to create rarity but avalibility.

And for those that know Sue Coes work or want to check out a great web site
on political prints check out http://www.graphicwitness.org   (I think I
got that right)


Greg Carter






------------------------------

From: "Lezle Williams" <lezlewilliams@gwtc.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:06:22 -0600
Subject: [Baren 12107] Re:   Baren Digest V13 #1215- editioning charset="iso-8859-1" 

This reminds me of something I have been wondering about...  A
friend of mine works solely in scratchboard.  He does wonderfully
detailed work and has been looking for an economical way to
reproduce a variety of his originals.  He gets great looking
reproductions from a good quality Xerox machine and sells packets
of notecards.  He has looked into offset reproduction and finds
the price prohibitive.  I have tried to sell him on woodcuts or
wood engraving, but he doesn't want to tackle a new medium at
this point.  So here is my question:  he recently took his
originals and notecards to a respected gallery- with the idea of
selling the originals, but the owner instead is having him sell
the black and white Xerox copies as limited edition original
prints (they are being printed on archival paper in editions of
100 )- she just doesn't mention to anyone what the process is and
they are for sale at $250 for a 5" x 7".   I can see how this can
cause confusion in the buyer's mind between an original vs a hand
printed-edition;  has anyone else heard of of Xeroxes being
marketed as limited- edition prints?

Lezle Williams
www.laughingcrow.org







------------------------------

From: Shireen Holman <shireenh@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:09:38 -0500
Subject: [Baren 12108] Re: Who's doing the counting ? 

Julio wrote:
>How do you go about setting a limit to your edition size?

I print small editions (25-30 at most) because most of my work is very 
labor intensive - it takes me long enough to do that many, it would take a 
whole lifetime for me to print an edition in the 100's! I know that many 
people do as you say - they set an edition number but only print a few and 
then expect to print the rest as they  sell. I find a problem with this. 
For one thing, the blocks are likely to warp after having been stored for 
several years. They may also dry out and then accept ink differently. Also, 
unless you use your inks straight from the cans, or tubes, or whatever, no 
matter how carefully you try to write down how you mixed each colour, you 
would never manage (at least I wouldn't) to get exactly the same thing 
three or four years later. And if you had several blocks with several 
colours, and depended on the combination of colours that they make as they 
are printed over each other, you would have to have _each_ colour be 
precise, and your problems would multiply! Also unless you buy all your 
paper for each edition and store it somewhere, you might not be able to 
find exactly the same paper again - and if you're going to have to store 
your paper somewhere, you might as well print the prints and store them! 
Anyway, I don't see how people reasonably do this. Maybe they never end up 
printing the rest of the edition, or maybe their editions are very 
inconsistent?
Shireen

***********************************************
Shireen Holman, Printmaker and Book Artist
email: shireenh@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~shireenh/
***********************************************





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From: "jerelee" <jerelee@main.nc.us>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:10:29 -0600
Subject: [Baren 12109] Re: Works on Paper Show at LSU charset="iso-8859-1" 

Hi Catherine Stevens!!!
 I just contacted LSU about the "Works on Paper Show" and received some
interesting information. Maybe you or someone else in Baren can clarify some
mistifying points. As previously noted I am an under the bed closet artist.
I make art and then give it away or store it. I have never exhibited for
fear of rejection and because art is purely subjective; based on an
individuals own idiosyncratic taste. Knowing that I  have actually been
influenced to submit work because of this forum, I am now entering some
pieces locally and far-far away.

My point of this note is to express my horror at the fact that an artist
from the Whitney is going to award $4,000 dollars in prizes by viewing
slides and never even come to the opening reception to see the original
work. How can anyone make an intelligent decision based on slide work? Yes,
I understand the logistics  and rationale for not submitting original work
but for the final pieces to be displayed and awarded prizes by slides alone
AND the sole juror does not even come to the opening to see the original
work to see, taste, and feel the art is beyond me. I don't get it. Please
fill me in.






------------------------------

From: "JD Roehrig" <jd423@zianet.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:16:52 -0700
Subject: [Baren 12110] I placed 

Hi All,
>From the snow locked recesses of the southern New Mexico=20
Mts. comes an announcement from another lurker.  I just re-
cieved word that I've been awarded a 2nd place and an Honor-
able mention for two of my prints in the New Mexico Veterans
Art Society show in Albuquerque at Fine Art Bldg., State Fair
grounds.  The 2nd placing print was my exchange 6 print, "In-
dian Corn".  I wish to thank "Baren" and its great group of people,
for getting my interest in printing started and producing, again.
JD
PS: A special Thank You to David and Graham, when the student
       is ready the teachers will appear.

------------------------------

From: Roxanne Sexauer <woodcuts@csulb.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:57:37 -0800
Subject: [Baren 12111] Re: Maria's "V"exing Question 

Maria -

I use a little piece of extremely fine sandpaper (Crocus cloth) . I just
fold it in half, insert, & with a few gentle back & forth motions knock
any burr on the inside of the "V" out. 

Roxanne



------------------------------


From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:46:04 -0800
Subject: [Baren 12113] Re: I placed 

Hi JD,

Congrats
When I saw "Indian Corn" I thought to my self.... hey this is not the 
same guy that was at Boot Camp that did a piece ... 
http://members.home.net/woodblocks/Prints2000.html
....so rich in colour.  The image and what it conveys is an wonderful 
example of risk and creative simplicity making a statement. In a way 
the title is some what redundant.

Now about the important part of life.... have you been fishing recently?
If you come back to boot camp, come early and we will grap a day or 
so of  deep sea fishing.

Keep up the good work pal.

Regards
Graham

I have send a copy to your personal e-mail address as my posts are 
being censoring.

------------------------------

From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:47:14 -1000
Subject: [Baren 12114] Re:   Baren Digest V13 #1215- editioning 

Lezle Williams wrote: 
> but the owner instead is having him sell
> the black and white Xerox copies as limited edition original
> prints (they are being printed on archival paper in editions of
> 100 )- she just doesn't mention to anyone what the process is and
> they are for sale at $250 for a 5" x 7".

If I were her customer I don't think that I would be too wild about
paying $250 for a Xerox copy. How can a Xerox copy be a guaranteed
limited edition, especially when anyone that owns one of the Xeroxes can
go down to the corner copy shop and run off as many "editions" as they
wish, in identical media and quality as their "original" Xerox? What a
scam! Another gallery dealing a black eye to the print market.

Jack





------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:03:18 -0800
Subject: [Baren 12115] Re: editions and submissions charset="iso-8859-1" 

On editioning:
An interesting discussion on editioning. I started out finishing all my
editions and going by several equally weighted factors:
- -how much paper I happen to have when the printing bug bites me
- -how much merit I think the image has, not exactly "selling" merit, but do I
really want 200 hundred copies laying around of a mediocre image, and if I
do, will it pass as a Christmas card?
- -whether it is morning or afternoon
- -whether I am printing by hand or press
- -whether I feel like giving Dave's philosophy some thought and just
print-away or whether I want to stick with tradition for an unknown and
sometimes irrational loyalty to the discipline that is making me so happy

Having weighed all the factors, I pray that I am doing a reduction woodcut,
so I don't have to think past the first one.
I started out doing very small editions because I was learning the craft and
most of my prints turned out crappy anyway. When I got to the luxurious
point of being able to choose an edition number, I picked a number based on
the merit of the image, larger edition if I thought the image had more
artistic merit.
I tried printing partial editions and frankly, the non-closure is killing
me. Let's say I run out and need to reprint, never mind about matching inks
and papers, which I often get a little crazy in mixing and choosing,
respectively. I was DONE with that print! It is 123 prints ago in my quest
for 1,000, you want me to go back????
No, from now on, no more partial editions for me. Engravings are 200 because
they are small and 200 is the limit set by the IRS on the paragraph that
defines an original limited edition print. One-block prints are 100, even
reduction prints are 100 because it's a nice round number with 2 zeros in
it. Besides, now I can afford to buy more paper. Larger prints are less,
somewhere between 25-50 because they are larger and take up too much damn
room.
Some day perhaps I will have the courage to tell my collectors: "I don't
edition anymore, go talk to Dave Bull for a perfectly logical explanation."
But I don't have that kind of courage yet. And then there are those
adventurous reduction blocks that I love so much.

> My point of this note is to express my horror at the fact that an artist
> from the Whitney is going to award $4,000 dollars in prizes by viewing
> slides and never even come to the opening reception to see the original
> work. How can anyone make an intelligent decision based on slide work?

Welcome to the world of "submissions." The above should not horrify you, it
is the way things are done. What this practice should tell you, though, is
that you need _really_ good slides of your work. If there is texture in your
paper, make sure the light catches it just right and it shows up on the
slide. A projected slide gives an excellent visual impression of the work it
represents--IF it is a great slide. Make great slides! After all art is a
visual medium, with the "taste and feel" being secondary to the visual
impression.
Be ready for more horrors when you don't even get the courtesy of a
rejection letter, nor your slides back from some black-hole submissions.
It's an exciting world out there, don't let it beat you and you will get
happily exhibited.

> black and white Xerox copies as limited edition original
> prints (they are being printed on archival paper in editions of
> 100 )- she just doesn't mention to anyone what the process is and
> they are for sale at $250 for a 5" x 7".   I can see how this can
> cause confusion in the buyer's mind between an original vs. a hand
> printed-edition;  has anyone else heard of Xeroxes being
> marketed as limited- edition prints?

Hilarious! I just bought an original 5" x 7" oil on canvas painting, framed
in a two inch wide wooden frame, for $35.00 at an art festival. Beautiful
piece of a Spanish tile walkway going off into the distance under old adobe
archways under a warm sunny light. Reminded me of Spain and the nun convents
where I grew up. The artists just started "on the circuit" (as we call it)
and did very well at the art fair. I suspect they will raise their prices in
time.

The buyer is not confused, the average buyer is simply ignorant of the
processes. Rather than try to condescendingly explain to every buyer that
walks into my booth or visits the gallery that these are "real" prints and
everything else came out of a machine, I simply show the carved blocks and
let them make up their mind.
I recently watched a worried seller of "prints" cover up her entire stock
due to the strong Vegas sun. She had a sign that read: "please cover the
prints after browsing, they fade in sun." A small victory for woodcuts made
with lightfast inks and papers...
Fact is, the majority of the people are buying images. The "couch-matchers"
won't buy a woodcut because it's a woodcut versus a repro, they will buy it
if it matches their couch. The few that buy art, those that don't care about
whether the piece matches their couch or not, they know the difference
between a woodcut and a reproduction. If anyone wants to make a living at
this, learn to blissfully ignore the "couch-matchers" and seek the art
collectors. They are out there and there's plenty of them for all of us.
They also buy images, but they know how they are made and appreciate you for
the process.

Health to all,
Maria

<><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango, Printmaker
Las Vegas  Nevada  USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><>





------------------------------

From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:02:49 -0800
Subject: [Baren 12116] Re:   Baren Digest V13 #1215- editioning 

> but the owner instead is having him sell
>the black and white Xerox copies as limited edition original
>prints
>Lezle Williams

So much for being a respectable gallery.......
So much for your friend not taking charge and protecting his name.
When the cats out to the bag it won't be the gallery that looses respect.

Graham




------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:40:45 -0800
Subject: [Baren 12117] road goes on charset="iso-8859-1" 

Forgot in my previous post, for the travelers out there, the road diary has
new illustrations and a new page:
http://www.1000woodcuts.com/1000woodcuts/road.html
http://www.1000woodcuts.com/1000woodcuts/road2.html
Enjoy,
Maria

<><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango, Printmaker
Las Vegas  Nevada  USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><>




------------------------------

From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:38:51 +0900
Subject: [Baren 12118] Censoring of postings ... 

A recent comment was made that [Baren] posts are being censored.

To clarify this point: at present, this forum is operating in
'moderated' mode. This means that all posts come to my (the moderator's)
desk before being sent out to the list. 

I am sending most of them out of course, but over the past couple of
weeks have held back three or four - posts which had no woodblock
content, or which tended in my opinion to include material that offered
nothing to the discussions, but which would cause friction between
members.

I have made _no_ changes in the content of any postings. I either send
them on, or delete them.  (although I have edited out 'junk' like
extended quotes or HTML code)

Whether or not this constitutes 'censorship' is a moot point - the forum
was unable to operate in a civil manner without this moderation, so
that's the way it's going to be for a while. I hope that most of you
understand this. 

Thanks ...

Dave







------------------------------

From: barbara patera <b.patera@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:07:15 Pacific Daylight Time
Subject: [Baren 12119] Re: Xerox Prints 

Boy, would I feel badly used if I were conned into paying 250.00 for a Xerox thinking it was a limited edition 
print.  This is a prime example of 'Let the buyer beware'.... too bad it is so detrimental to all of us who do 
produce the 'real' thing.

Barbara P.



------------------------------

From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:41:52 -0500
Subject: [Baren 12120] Re: editions and submissions charset=ISO-8859-1 

Maria wrote,

>She had a sign that read: "please cover the prints after browsing, they
>fade in sun." A small victory for woodcuts made with lightfast inks and
>papers...

Maria, _are_ the inks and papers lightfast?   I have always heard they were
not, which is why museums are so protective of them.   I know "regular"
paper will discolor in the sunlight, but thought even acid-free paper such
as hosho did too, only perhaps not so fast.

If Jack is tuned in, maybe he could address that.   I thought he had
already in his "care of prints" section of the Baren Encyclopedia.

Gary




------------------------------

From: Legreenart@cs.com
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:48:48 EST
Subject: [Baren 12121] Re: how big an edition? 

Dear Julio, 
    In the 1970's, editons of of 100-200 were pushed by printmaking programs, 
and artists ended up with stockpiles. But the main problem was with large 
editions was that many artists began to feel like copy machines. Now editions 
of 20 are considered to be large enough by most people I know. 
    I usually print from 6 to 20 prints, and number the edition. As the 
edition sells, and I think it might sell out, I raise the price of the 
print.I don't sell my last print. Then I can feel way ahead of the painter 
who sell his only original. I usually cancel the plate.
    If the edition sells out, and the image still excites my artistic 
interests, I may print a new image based on the original design. If I do not 
have an artistic reason for making a new edition, I don't make one. In the 
past, I made some new prints that were no more than an attempt to copy an 
earlier print. The experience was less than satisfactory as art and as an 
artistic experience. I will not do it again. Besides, people who buy my work 
are more likely to buy a new image than an old one. This is no longer "should 
do it" way of working, It is the only way that making prints fills my needs. 
I has been good to make it a rule to really limit editions, because the 
temptation to reprint for dollars is hard to resist, yet I am never happy 
with the results if I do.
    I have alot of respect for alot of different ideas about limited and 
unlimited editions. When the philosophy and the art and the marketing come 
from a "true" place in the artistic heart, it works, because in this world, 
each artist is allowed to choose those rules they wish to follow, or make 
rules of their own.
    You keep growing as an artist. Do you really want old editions demanding 
you go back to them instead of allowing your muse to lead you forward?
    

Yours, 
Le Green
Stonemetal Press
Email: legreenart@cs.com
Website:  www.stonemetalpress.homepage.com




------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:50:34 -0800
Subject: [Baren 12122] Re: lightfast charset="iso-8859-1" 

Gary wrote:
> Maria, _are_ the inks and papers lightfast?   I have always heard they were
> not, which is why museums are so protective of them.   I know "regular"
> paper will discolor in the sunlight, but thought even acid-free paper such
> as hosho did too, only perhaps not so fast.

All the papers I use have been subjected to the dreadful "driveway test,"
whereby I lay a piece of paper on my driveway half covered with an opaque
something. If it survives 2-3 days without fading, it's on my good list. As
far as inks, I read labels and literature before choosing, many reds fade,
as do blues and blacks. Also, I wrap my shrink wrapped pieces in UV
protectant wrap and all my framed pieces are behind UV safe plexi.
Having said all that, experience in the automotive color-matching field
taught me that a 3 day old red paint job (for example) is already a couple
of shades off the factory paint. This was so even with the addition of
polyurethane coatings which claimed to be 100% UV safe and therefore
fade-proof. Too much is too much.
So anyhow, I wouldn't place the same pieces over and over in the bright
shiny sun for days on end, but a few days of exposure here and there show no
detrimental effects from the sun when compared with "fresh" prints from my
deep dark drawers. With about 12-14 outdoor fairs per year, most of them in
half shade half the day, hopefully, the works will sell before they fade :-)
Maria

<><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango, Printmaker
Las Vegas  Nevada  USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><>




------------------------------

From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:02:44 -1000
Subject: [Baren 12124] Re: lightfast 

Maria Arango wrote:
> Gary wrote:
> > Maria, _are_ the inks and papers lightfast?
>
> All the papers I use have been subjected to the dreadful "driveway test,"
> If it survives 2-3 days without fading, it's on my good list. As
> far as inks, I read labels and literature before choosing, many reds fade,
> as do blues and blacks.

You are both right. There are no really "lightfast" papers, but only colored
papers will show any changes from short term exposure, and that, as Maria has
found out, depends on the pigment used in the coloring process, and will vary
from manufacturer to manufacturer. Ditto with inks. Inks are as lightfast as the
pigment used to make them, and with careful selection, and personal experience,
an artist can select pigments that will not really be too affected by a few
short exposures to sunlight. Maria, while not really able to make 100% lightfast
prints, is taking care to assure that her customers will be able to appreciate
her prints for a good long time. It sounds like her art fair neighbor may be
picking pigments based primarily on how she likes the look of the color. Of
course, it's up to the artist, and she is at least informing her customers of
her print's frailties, so there won't be any ugly surprises

Jack






------------------------------

From: "pwalls1234" <pwalls1234@i-55.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:18:37 -0600
Subject: [Baren 12125] Re: Works on Paper Show at LSU charset="iso-8859-1" 

From: jerelee
>  I just contacted LSU about the "Works on Paper Show" and received 
>  some interesting information ...

I have noticed a few shows doing this these days.  LSU has done this before,
more than once, and I have never quite got it!

Maybe 3 or 4 years ago I entered the show and a juror, out of state, picked
the winners by slide only!!  Personally I was quite disappointed to see the
some of the winning work in person, not all though.  Anyone who has noticed
how work can look a 1000 times better or worse in a slide can understand how
this whole process can be a problem.

I have not entered this show since but always consider it because of the $.
That one show really turned me off though!!

pete
baton rouge




------------------------------

From: "pwalls1234" <pwalls1234@i-55.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:24:43 -0600
Subject: [Baren 12126] Catherine Stevens ... charset="iso-8859-1" 

Catherine,

Thanks!  Did not know you worked there at the gallery??  I look forward to
meeting you Saturday.  I trust you will be at the opening??

Do you ever stop down in the printshop, Foster Hall???    I usually am there
in the evenings printing and working on some other stuff.  Just got back
from printing another run on an edition a few minutes ago.  The number there
is 388-5396.  Feel free to call and come on over!!

pete walls
baton rouge





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End of Baren Digest V13 #1216
*****************************