[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest              Friday, 19 November 1999      Volume 09 : Number 788

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From: B Mason <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:18:17 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6693] print is a print or something like that 

Gary,
I have to agree and disagree (where did we hear that) about digital
work. I think Graham feels the way he does because so many galleries
sell digital or offset copies of work and do not really inform the buyer
what they are getting. This is such a sore spot for printmakers and of
course educating the public is the answer.

On the other hand we have a photographer in our gallery who digitally
manipulates his photos with the computer and prints them out as iris
prints. We happily sell these in the gallery because this is this
artist's real work, not a copy of another work. We are very careful to
explain to the public what it is and that this image is produced in an
edition of  50 copies and then the file is destroyed. I do think this
digital stuff is just another tool like a paint brush or a chisel. I do
primarily monotypes (until I got hooked on baren) and they have only
lately gotten credibility and been accepted in exhibitions. Things
change in the art media realm just as fast as the rest of the world.

We printmakers will never be able to really come to terms with
reproductions until the public really can understand the
difference......what we need is that perfect world
Barbara

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From: Ruth Leaf <leafr@ecom.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:23:17 -0700
Subject: [Baren 6694] Re: Baren Digest V9 #787 

I have to agree with Gary any image that is artistically satisfying in
my mind is art.  Graham you have to look at reality the computer, by the
way allows us to communicate with each other, is the future and if it
also allows some means of artistic expression so be it.  I'm not saying
that all that comes off as a digital print is valid but some of it is
art.  I have done a bunch of masks on the computer and printed them.
They are on my web page.  I don't know if you would call it art but the
freedom the computer allows to play with drawing shapes form or whatever
is very exciting and many of my woodcuts have come from using the
computer as a sketch book.  I hope you all will let me know what you
think..Ruth
http://www.ruthleaf.com

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:57:00 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6696] Re: Print is a print is a print..... 

We know you are strong on the computer and mechanical aspect of art.
So be it.
Lets not go off in the wrong direction.
You must know what I am, and have been saying, for quite some time.

What part of "HANDMADE" don't you understand.????


Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:08:33 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6697] Re: print is a print or something like that 

As long as the digital stuff is sold for what it is I have no argument.
It is when the 'who evers' pass it off as collectable and valuable that
truely grits.

Sofa Art is an important part of our economy and it is required to satisfy
the needs of those that need to match the furniture and curtain colours or
desisgn.

The perfect world would be if all Scammers turned purple....

Graham

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From: "Brad A. Schwartz" <brads@iea.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:15:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 6698] Re: Baren Digest V9 #787 

Ruth wrote:
- ->freedom the computer allows to play with drawing shapes form or whatever
- ->is very exciting and many of my woodcuts have come from using the
- ->computer as a sketch book.  I hope you all will let me know what you
- ->think..Ruth

But here you are using the computer for a means of experimentation, not
for a final 'editioned' product... I think that is Graham's point, that
people aren't educated on the difference between a mass produced offset
web printed poster, a mass produced offset printed limited edition poster
(print), a hand printed limited edition relief, intalgio, engraving, lito,
seriagraph and a computer generated scan of a painting printed as a
'limited edition print' but is really a giclee...

That's the biggest thing... getting people to understand what the
differences are and to help art buyers/collectors spend their money wisely
to obtain something that is not only pleasing to the eye, but of some
actual value...

Brad

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From: Wanda Robertson <robertson@canby.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:21:45 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6699] Re: Print is a print is a print..... 

Hmmm... I want to argue too! Oh, discuss? Dis & cuss? Oh! O.K.

I think the biggest problem I have with the giclee/inkjet/reproduction
thing is the fact that people are led to believe these things (which are
copies of artist-created work) are worth huge amounts of money. Many
people buy these things as investments to resell later when they are
"out of production". They pay hundreds and thousands of dollars for a
reproduction with the artist's name on it. Even though there are
thousands of them being sold. While the true artists (us?) work really
hard for not much remuneration for our work. I think we should call it
the "beanie baby syndrome". The public is being hood-winked in so many
ways concerning consumer goods.  And the art market is just one more
example. 

Never in man's history has the "Caveat Emptor" been so true. BUYER
BEWARE!  

Wanda

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From: "Jeanne Norman Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:29:55 -0500
Subject: [Baren 6700] The wonders of the woodblock

Dave
You said that "You find it difficult to understand why sightless people are
interested in what we do."
Let me tell you and others a wonderful story;

I have a dear friend, he is sightless, he was born blind and so has no
preconception of what things look like.
 He is 45 and a brilliant person.
 He visited my studio one day and asked me to explain what I was doing.
 I had him touch the tools (carefully so he would not cut himself), I then
had him feel a blank piece of cherry wood.
 I got a carved block out and had him feel the woodblock as I explained what
the lines were.
 He was fascinated and wanted to feel all of the woodblocks.
 I took him through the various stages of the first block, the second block
and then the key block.
He was here for 2 hours of great amazement and understanding.
 It really brought tears to my eyes to think that perhaps I had opened
another vista for him.

To regress; When he was 14 years of age. I was at his home when he posed a
question.
As he was feeling the window of glass he asked
"Why is it that you can see through this solid piece of material?"
That really choked everyone.
 It is hard to put yourselves in others shoes.
 Anyway, Mark (his name), wants to "see" every woodblock that I do from now
on.

Jeanne

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:39:43 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6701] Re: Baren Digest V9 #787 

Ruth,
All imagery can be considered as Art.
My concern is that the person that sells it for what it is not.
They attach phrases and adjectives to make it out to me more important that
just Decorative thus scamming the poor innocent public.

> don't know if you would call it art but the
>freedom the computer allows to play with drawing shapes form or whatever
>is very exciting and many of my woodcuts have come from using the
>computer as a sketch book.

This most certainly a personal call.  I will not touch it as I do not see
the need.
I can achieve much much more with pencil and paper (or any drawing tool) in
half the time it takes to frig around on the computer.  I have experience
and am comfortable using..... Photoshop, Illustrator, Canvas, FreeHand,
MacPaint, PageMaker, QuarkXpress,Fractual Painter.....and probably a half
dozen more you care to mention.   None of these can come close to doing the
job for me.

You have heard me say it before and I repeat it again for all.....
"There is no substitute for the ability to Draw"
Once I sort the basics of the image and idea out in my mind, I am then able
to able to reduce the longest distance in the world (from the eye to the
hand) down to attainable reach.

Graham

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From: STELLA F BECKMAN <sfb@sfsu.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:58:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 6704] Re: Baren Digest V9 #787 

hello, 
i'm a new subscriber. i am also a student at san francisco state
university. i'm allegedly a creative writing major, but i took a
printmaking class for fun and now i'm hooked. i'm hoping to pick up some
info about printmaking and the community...

stella 

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:57:59 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6705] Re: The wonders of the woodblock 

Jeanne wrote....
>I have a dear friend, he is sightless, he was born blind and so has no
>preconception of what things look like.

Wonderful story....quite moving.
I thought to myself as I read this.....it is somewhat like seeing in the
mind what he feels with his hand....the reality is he can not put it back
down on paper for others to enjoy

Artist see it with their mind and can go the next step.....for all to enjoy.

Graham

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:55:41 -0600
Subject: [Baren 6706] re: Prints/Repro/Passion 

My .02 cents worth.  I agree with Graham. I also agree with Philip, Gary, Wanda
& Ruth and all the others that posted on these issues. I am very agreeable
today.

Graham writes:
"There is no substitute for the ability to Draw".

Yes!. From brain to hand to pencil to paper. Here! I did this!  Here is my
fingerprint on paper ! There is no substitute for that feeling. For those of us
that are not skilled, is a struggle. Yet is a struggle well worth the conquering
for with every small step forward I make my confidence grows a hundred fold. I
don't need to be able to draw like a Michelangelo, Rembrandt or a Scholes...I
just need to be able to convey my message to the best ability that Julio
Rodriguez can. If I can communicate, I have succeeded.

There are those content with just the "image" as someone said. Some people are
duped, but I believe the majority know exactly what they are buying. If a
gallery sells a photo-reproduction for the same price as an original print,
shame on them if they don't disclose to the buyer. Shame on the buyer for not
doing the homework. But a buyer needs to be educated an realize there is a
difference between an original print selling for $900 and a reproduction selling
for $125.   Which one he/she purchases is their option. Why do people buy
Mercedes and Cadillacs instead of Jetta's and Pontiac's ?

It might really come down to something Dave posted a while back. It has to do
with getting your public to feel "your passion" for your work. To not just buy
you print (because it's nice), but to make them feel like they are getting a
piece of "you".  I collect Dave Bull's work because not only I enjoy the prints
he makes but because I also admire and "feel" for his work, the technique and
the "passion" involved in creating such work. The whole package. If I only cared
about the "image", then I might be content with purchasing a photo-reproduction
of Dave's work. I am also purchasing prints from other Bareners for the same
reasons. I admire their struggle, their passion and their enthusiasm. I am
buying a piece of the artist , his/her  struggle to create and to communicate. I
don't know that I like any of Picasso's works (or any other artist) enough to go
out and spend millions of  dollars on any one piece.....but I might if I had the
money and if I believed in the man and his work and what he stood for.....and I
wanted a piece of that "passion" for myself. Wether that passion comes thru from
a printmakers handmade work or from a computer-artists mind.......is irrelevant.


ON a different note,,,, Is there a proper way for me to let an exhibition know
that I have multiples of my accepted print available for sale ?  They have
indicated in the prospectus that sales are encouraged....

Julio

pps.....I own a Jetta and a Pontiac.......did not mean to offend any car owners
outhere....

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From: "Bea Gold" <bnj50@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:34:22 -0800
Subject: [Baren 6708] Re: The wonders of the woodblock charset="iso-8859-1" 

Jeanne - what a wonderful story.  I used to work with blind kids many years
ago and always was fascinated with their exploration to make sense of the
world.  Mark sounds like a terrific man.  Thanks for sharing the story.  Bea

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From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:57:27 -1000
Subject: [Baren 6710] Re: Print is a print is a print..... 

Gary  wrote:
>   A good artist can use his media to convey his artistic vision to
> an audience.   I contend that even computer images can be means of such
> conveyance.   Period.

Yikes! What have we started? What fun. I have some mixed feelings on this
issue. I really like a lot of stuff that can be done with the computer, and
there is some fascinating work to be found out there on the internet (with a
lot of sifting).
   On the other hand, when I went to the annual exhibition of the Honolulu
Printmakers, it was with an appreciation of the history of the organization.
It was founded, at least in part, by Charles Bartlett, a well known English
painter and etcher, who, during a trip to Japan in 1915, met the publisher of
Japanese shin hanga prints, Watanabe Shozaburo, and began a collaboration that
resulted in some very beautiful and well known prints. When Bartlett came to
Hawaii in 1917 to present an exhibition of his work, he settled here for the
rest of his life, and founded one of the longest exhibiting printers
organizations in the Country. It was with this background that I found the
inclusion of ink jet prints in the exhibit incongruous.
   I realize that there will always be the fuzzy edge of art tradition, that
pushes forward with new materials and media, and that makes the traditionalist
uncomfortable. When acrylic paint was introduced, it created an outcry, as I'm
sure a lot of what we now consider mainstream media and techniques did when
they appeared. So why is computer output any different? I guess it's not,
really. It's just that it's happening in the middle of my experience so, damn
it, it's just not right! Right Graham? Besides, those computer images look
better on the screen of my computer, than printed out on paper, so sell them
as limited edition screen savers.

Jack

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:47:34 -0500
Subject: [Baren 6713] Re: Print is a print is a print..... 

Aloha Jack,

>  It was founded, at least in part, by Charles Bartlett, a
> well known English painter and etcher, 

Yes, I have studied Bartlett's Hawaiian scenes in particular, though to me
they are less impressive than some of his other work.

I think I would feel the same way, going to a printmakers exhibition and
seeing computer printed art there.   I don't think it quite falls in that
area, as you say.   Printmakers "make" prints.   Artists make designs.  
Therefore I would expect to see a computer artist at an artist's or a
computer artist's exhibition, not at a printmaker's.   If they are selling
it as handmade then I would have to step over into Graham's camp and begin
arming myself with eggs too.   One media should not be used to dupe an
unsuspecting victim into thinking it is from another medium which has a
higher market value to it.

What will happen is that sooner or later a computer artist will become
popular and suddenly the "art form" will also.   Then it becomes part of
the traditional forms of art and some new thing will spring up to take the
heat off.   

> Besides, those computer images look better on the screen of my computer,
> than printed out on paper,

Yes, what other art form is made up of so much illumination?   It is
amazing.   And yes, you can never capture that effect so well on a printed
page.   As for your idea of selling limited edition screen savers, yeah,
right!  There's got to be a big market for that!  
Cut.......Copy.........Save as wallpaper?

Gary

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 07:57:43 +0900
Subject: [Baren 6714] Re: The wonders of the woodblock 

Jeanne wrote:
> Let me tell you and others a wonderful story;

Yes, touching story Jeanne.  I too, have had similar experiences with
people who want to touch the blocks, and indeed I have a 'regular'
sightless visitor to my annual exhibitions - she comes back every year
without fail, and I always prepare some blocks for her to 'see'. 

When I suggested that our work wasn't applicable to sightless people, it
was simply that I don't feel that our _web sites_ can have much to offer
them.  Whether it is a 'frames' version or a 'no frames' version - a
graphic arts web site isn't going to do much for these people ...

 (In a related matter: I have also learned that at exhibition time I
must bring extra copies of all the written material that is up on the
wall on the display panels.  Because of the glare reflecting from the
ceiling lights onto these panels, people in wheelchairs cannot easily
read them, and they are always mighty pleased when I pass them a small
pamphlet with the material reproduced ...)

***

Many of you have written recently about how 'we must educate the public'
on this 'reproductions' thing. Sorry to disagree with so many of you,
but I don't think that is anything to do with us.  Leave 'em be - it's
no concern of ours.

Do you believe that woodblocks prints are more beautiful ... more 'real'
than those posters?  If so, then carve and print and talk and display
and promote _woodblock prints_!  Don't worry about that other stuff.
Ignore it. People will see what you are doing ... and some of them will
see the light.

Do you think that a Mac is a 'better' computer than those other ones? 
If so, then simply _use_ your Mac to do nifty stuff.  Don't worry about
the other guys. Ignore them. People will see what you are doing ... and
some of them will see the light.

Hostility towards 'the other guy' brings nothing but grief to all of us.
And hey, who are we to say that they are wrong?  If the guy who buys one
of those offset posters of whales dancing under the sea, thinking that
he has a 'limited edition' print that will not only look 'good' over his
sofa, but will be an investment too ... if that thought makes him happy,
then leave him be.  Who knows, maybe he is right - if enough people
_think_ those things are valuable, then they _will_ be valuable. (I've
even got this friend who bought Microsoft stock some months ago ... 
What a crazy idea!  But who is the crazy one ...?)

Sorry to rant a bit, but I really deeply believe that we should not try
and mold the world into the shape we think is the best.  Some very evil
people in history have taken that idea to extremes ...  You and I on
this list _know_ how beautiful woodblock prints can be.  And that's
where our energies should be spent - not in bashing the other side, but
in making our own prints so beautiful that people will gasp in
admiration ... so beautiful that people just can't keep their hands off
them!  _Then_ you will be able to laugh at the poster boys, not curse at
them ...

***

Speaking of beautiful ... I picked up a new print last week, a Meiji-era
design by the artist Ogata Gekko.  It's too big to scan the whole thing
for you, but I thought you might like to see one particular part of it -
a gradation from one colour to another ... a gradation so perfectly
smooth that your eye cannot tell where one colour ends and the other
begins.  Far smoother than nature's own gradations in a rainbow.

http://woodblock.com/temporary/gekko.jpg

Now _that's_ something worth getting excited about!

Dave

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End of Baren Digest V9 #788
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