[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Wednesday, 25 August 1999     Volume 08 : Number 676

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:07:15 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5393] The gloves are off.  

Gary wrote....
>Picasso may have taken plenty of artistic license, but I don't recall
>seeing "errors" showing in his work.

Do not confuse"errors" and "mistakes" with risk taking.  Picasso took risks.

>I might turn your last phrase around to say, "If there are mistakes showing
>in your work, it _is_ a sign nothing was done."   Unfortunately.
>The _skill_ of the artist is proportionate to the lack of errors in his or
>her work, is it not?  Would you buy a piece of art if it showed a lot of
>mistakes or would you set it back as having been done by an amateur?

It is easy to rephrase, change a word, or in art, a line, a colour to
distort the original.

>Artistic license is one thing, errors are another.

Artistic license was never in the equation here.

So how's your computer art going.......(<:
When are you going to find time to carve and print your work.
It is the fun part of the fun Gary.

Now that tells everybody exactly where I stand on computer art and
collaboration.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:20:54 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5394] Re: perception disorder 

Gary wrote....
>Picasso may have taken plenty of artistic license, but I don't recall
>seeing "errors" showing in his work.

I missed this in your posting......

No not now Gary, but 80 years ago when he persevered to create and develop
his style it was considered mistakes and bad art.  As the work became
acceptable it was recognized as risk taking and stand up as innovative art.

Graham

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From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:39:43 EDT
Subject: [Baren 5395] "mistakes" 

Graham wrote:
> "If there are no mistakes it is a sign nothing was done." 

Thank you Graham, my sentiments exactly.  If the artmaking process was 
totally predictable, how boring it would be!  I think sometimes the most 
interesting results can come out of the struggle to get out on paper what's 
in your head, and technical barriers can sometimes make us discover either 
new, unconventional ways of doing things or bring us to a different, more 
interesting result than we could have achieved if we had tried to plan every 
last detail.
Best to all,

Sarah

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From: "Ramsey Household" <cjramsey@mind.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:04:53 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5398] Re: "mistakes" 

I agree!  An artist (I think) needs to push the boundaries and be
uncomfortable in order to grow.  When one does this, it is almost certain
to open one's art to criticism.  And to make "mistakes".  It is much easier
to be "safe" and avoid misunderstanding.  Great art, it seems to me, has
always been the result of a reaction against the status quo.

Carolyn

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From: Wanda Robertson <robertson@canby.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:19:13 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5399] Re: Collaboration (To Cut or Not to Cut)... 

You know, this collaboration idea is an interesting "what if". What if
we produced some woodblock prints in a round robin kind of way? Are
there any takers on trying this? For instance, one person would pick the
wood or blocks - send it on to the next person who would choose a design
and attach or draw it on the blocks - send it on to the next person or
persons to cut the blocks - etc. until it was a finished product of
however many prints were decided apon. Could enough people suspend their
control of the outcome to do this? It would surely be an interesting
collaboration, IMHO. Personally, I would love to participate in
something like this - what do the rest of you think?

Welcome to the new folks! Wonderful to hear from you - keep posting!

Wanda

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:12:18 -0400
Subject: [Baren 5401] The gloves are off. 

Graham wrote,
> Artistic license was never in the equation here."  

Yes it was.   Dave was commenting on the ability these artists had to
totally distort reality in some ways, and yet the viewer was able to
overlook that as style.   I have no disagreement with that.  I was pointing
out that it seemed to me, over and above that "style" however, errors were
made in the execution of the print.  "Mistakes" were made.

We all make mistakes in our work, and as Carolyn suggested, I think, some
artists take advantage of that to make it look intentional.  That's fine. 
Don't we all do that?   But what if you make mistakes and either through
carelessness or not perceiving them, you carry them over into your final
work?

Dave once sent me a "reject" one of his prints, which he rejected from
sending out to a customer because of a hair's breadth misregistration in
one detail of the print.   If he had let it go, once having perceived that,
to a customer, he would have felt he had gypped the customer by passing off
inferior work.   That was not perceived as "artistic license" or "pushing
the limits of the known art world" as someone suggested Picasso had done.  
He had simply made a mistake and recognized it as such. I think some of
these arguments for _some mistakes_ are seeming to imply _all mistakes_. 
There are mistakes which help us grow as artists, and there are other
mistakes that are in the realm of carelessness.   They serve no purpose in
furthering the artistic intent of the work but instead detract from it.

Graham also wrote:   
> So how's your computer art going.......(<: When are
> you going to find time to carve and print your work.  It is the fun part of
> the fun Gary."

The computer art is going fine, Graham.   I hope to expand my web-site soon
with some of my latest work, part of the "new genre" I talked about some
time ago.   Stay tuned.    When will I find time to carve and print my
work?   That's a good question.   Not soon enough.   However I still intend
to use the collaborative method in the mean time, until I'm as good at
carving and printing as I think I should be before attempting it.   And
that may be some time from now.    I am however entertaining the thought of
perhaps joining one of your classes next year, or Dave's, should he decide
to offer one,  to further that very goal.   I  would like to eventually
develop my skills in those areas.   I certainly am ready for some fun! 

Gary

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:54:00 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5402] Re: The gloves are off. 

Gary wrote
>I was pointing
>out that it seemed to me, over and above that "style" however, errors were
>made in the execution of the print.  "Mistakes" were made.

Only in the eyes of the beholder.......

>We all make mistakes in our work,

Not me Gary....mine are perfect.    (<;

>They serve no purpose in
>furthering the artistic intent of the work but instead detract from it.

All in the eyes of the beholder......What you defined as mistakes in the
image Dave posted I don't consider to be mistakes.

>When will I find time to carve and print my
>work?   That's a good question.   Not soon enough.
>However I still intend
>to use the collaborative method in the mean time, until I'm as good at
>carving and printing as I think I should be before attempting it.


To get there you must be there and get doing.....
If you have not done it the think about being good is in the mind of the
beholder

Once you start you will enjoy the journey ...... it takes a lifetime.

Graham

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From: "Cyndy Wilson" <cwilson@cet.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:44:54 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5404] Re: Collaboration (To Cut or Not to Cut)... 

> what if  For instance, one person would pick the wood or blocks - 
> send it on to the next person ...

I think that you have a very interesting idea.  I would suggest that the 1st
person select their wood block and design, have the 2nd, 3rd (and maybe
4th ) persons do the carving and the last person edition the print.  The
first time around it might be wise to limit it to a monochromatic image.
Don't know how difficult it would be to organize.

Cyndy

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From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:53:24 +0000
Subject: [Baren 5405] Re: 

Andy English wrote:
> Incidently, there seems to be an inexplicable (to me) hostility between
> some workers in wood engraving and woodcut in Britain - end grain verses
> side grain.

It's just an example of the unfortunate tendency of people to look for
personal differences in the face of overwhelming similar interests. Hey! That
sounds like this current Baren discussion!

Jack

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From: Aqua4tis@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:17:28 EDT
Subject: [Baren 5406] Re: perception disorder 

i saw a show of picassos work a few months ago at the LA county museum       
it was a retrospective            believe me    he made some errors!!!        
that doesnt take away from his greatness        to me it added to it       he 
was willing to make mistakes        i think part of being an artist is the 
willingness to jump off cliffs at regular intervals        if we dont take 
chances we dont grow        and as long as we take chances there are bound to 
be some errors        i hope i never get so good that i dont make mistakes 
because that will mean that im producing a formula  or assembly line type 
work    i dont want to become complacent about my work   or to fearful to try 
unknown things        this is what i like most about picasso       he kept 
playing
   just my opinion
        georga

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From: Pedrobot@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:31:49 EDT
Subject: [Baren 5407] Re: Collaboration (To Cut or Not to Cut)... 

>I would suggest that the 1st person select their wood block and design, 
> have the 2nd, 3rd (and maybe 4th ) persons do the carving ...

I think even more interesting would be for the "designer" to set up multiple 
copies of the same image, and then get more than one team working on the same 
initial design.  I think it would be fascinating to see the differences in 
interpretation and execution as done by different groups... not a "let's see 
who can do it better" but a "let's see _how_ we do it".  The carving and 
printing styles of the group seem to vary so much, that you'd be bound to get 
some radically different finished products.

- --Pete

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From: Barbara Mason <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:57:01 -0700
Subject: [Baren 5408] Re: Collaboration (To Cut or Not to Cut)... 

Pete,
I think this is a great way to do it, what a fun project, maybe for exchange #5
Barbara

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End of Baren Digest V8 #676
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