[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Tuesday, 15 December 1998     Volume 05 : Number 377

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('Off-topic' post deleted)

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From: Sheryl Coppenger <sheryl@SEAS.GWU.EDU>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:08:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baren 2342] Re: Reissued posts 

Graham wrote:
> <Changing pigments, however, is another matter.  If you change colors, then
> issue the prints as <a new project, as a new edition, than you will be in
> trouble, surely ethically if not legally.
> 
> This is as greedy as the use of different kind of paper and my questions
> stands..... Why would any body want to do this.??? What possible motivation
> is there to warrent this???
> 
> Why not practice KISS  (keep it simple studpid)  and create a new image.
> Isn't that why we do art!!!!
> 
> Graham

New images are great, but playing with the old one can be valid to IMO.  I
like to print on different papers with different inks.  I like to hand color
some B&W images to see what they look like (and because coloring can be
fun).  Sometimes I even cut them up and put them back together.  Not all 
images inspire me to do this, but some do and if I didn't go with the 
impulse I think I would be less of an artist.  Why be content with a B+
result when, if I continue working through I might wind up with an A+
print?  Do my B+ prints deserve to be destroyed when some people might
think they're the A+ print and the final version was ruined?  I say put
both of them out there and let history decide.  If none of the versions
are up to my standards, they stay at home or go in the round file.  They
don't get offered for sale.

For instance, why have you done more than one lighthouse?  Is it simply
because marketing strategy dictates that a "serious" artist explores a
theme?  Is it because lighthouse pictures are second only to cat pictures
in guaranteed marketability? :-)  I hope not.  I hope it is because lighthouses 
have excited you enough to look at them from several different angles.  That
you feel you have something different to express about a rather common subject. 

You have done several different lighthouses.  When Monet got on a cathedral 
kick he painted the same one over and over.  Would you say Monet was greedy?  I 
wouldn't.  I'd just say he finished the first one and still had something to 
say about that cathedral.  That doesn't mean there aren't people out there who 
would just knock out pictures of Notre Dame for the rest of their lives 
because they sell.  But that isn't the same even if the externals are the same.

I'm going to wind up repeating an image I did for a print exchange a couple
years ago because after it was done I decided I wanted to do a series on
the same theme.  The original print was 6x8 landscape, the new one will be 
8x10 portrait layout.  The stone with the original image was ground and
reused soon after the edition was done, so there will be no work saved.
Since the layout is different some new composition work will have to be
done.  But anyone who has seen both will know that they're the same image.
Why am I doing the same image again?  It's a different project, but this
is the image that inspired the project and IMO it should be in there.  It
*belongs* in there.  But the original is no longer available and it's also
in the wrong format.  And it's been 2 years and I'd do it differently now
(heck, I'd have done it differently if I started immediately after the
first one was finished).


> An extremely well know Canadian artist who did small
> editions of silkscreens selling for 1000.00 to 1400.00 went to reproduction
> posters selling for 30.00.  He is having a difficult times selling the
> original prints and the prices have dropped at least 50%
> 
> Why not practice KISS  and create a new image.
> Isn't that why we do art!!!!

Graham, you're repeating yourself. :-)  And I'd really prefer you better
separated issues of market and issues of art.  They're only the same for
graphic illustrators (who only work on an image if there's money in it),
not for "fine" artists.

Reproductions are not the same case as additional prints with different 
colors, paper, etc. because an original print with changes can easily be 
done for artistic/aesthetic/growth reasons where a reproduction is strictly
done for the market.


> It is really quite simple.
> Create NEW images and let the old ones live there lives in a normal and non
> greedy way.
> 
> Why would you ever want to carve up an existing plate to prolong the life
> of some image or part of one?  That would be like  "Me Too Art."

Because every decision changes the final product.  Sometimes drastically.
I've even tried doing the same image in different media, just because you
sometimes can learn more that way than by doing a new image.  You don't
get distracted by the change in image.  That's why for painters, copying
has been a respected learning tool for centuries.  Cassatt and Van Gogh
(and others) even copied Japanese prints in oil.  Copying yourself serves
some of the same function.  I started a second version of an oil I did
several years ago.  I promise it wasn't for the money.  I didn't sell the
first one. :-)  Many artists have several different versions of the same 
work.  Some did it for money, but by no means all.  Others are just famous
for reworking the same canvas over and over.  Serves the same purpose, but
I'd rather see the results side by side.

Just my $.02.

Sheryl Coppenger    

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From: Sheryl Coppenger <sheryl@SEAS.GWU.EDU>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:29:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baren 2343] On a subject other than editioning (hurrah) 

Greetings,

Just bounced over to the Printworks magazine site at

	http://eyelid.ukonline.co.uk/print/works.htm

They've added a lot of things since I looked at that site last spring, 
including a selection for "Wood Engraving: the process".  It's not the
definitive article on wood engraving, but it's a good introduction and
the artist (Andy English) has several examples of his work up if anyone
is interested.  Previously Printworks seemed to be almost exclusively about
intaglio techniques.  They're branching out.

Sheryl Coppenger    

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:40:18 -0800
Subject: [Baren 2344] Re: feedback 

Julio wrote....
>Graham I think you are contradicting yourself ! .

............No, I am not.........

When I refer to bottom line greed it was never directed personally. It is a
general term.  If anybody is insulted, then they have taken it the wrong
way.
I think you have, because of the comments in your e-mail. I will take the
time to get things on the right track which makes this a rather lengthy
posting.  Sorry but I can't allow some of your input to stand unexplained.

>What do you mean when they are sold you go and print more ? Is that six
>months later ? One year later ? or 10 years after the first printing ?

I make the decision to do 25 or 35 or 75 edition from day one. Whether I
print them all at once is relevant. When I sell the first 15 or 10 or what
ever, I print some more. How long after the first print.....I don't know
and it does not matter but probably within 5 years. Nothing is different in
doing this than printing an open edition over a long time frame of 5, 15,
25 or what ever years.
I sure don't see a difference?

>What about pigments ? Is every batch you buy (or mix ) equal

How do I get consistency?.... Easy, keep containers of ink to complete the
edition. Sometimes I will miss judge the volumn and have to mix more.  Not
a problem as I can match exactly what I want at any time.

>What about the woodblocks ? You do many colors...how can you ensure
>registration will be the same later on when dealing with so many blocks ?

Registration is registration be it 2 or 10 blocks. Dry your blocks slowly
and from both sides and they will not change... at least not that you would
ever be able to detect.

>A year down the line...surely your "artistic eye" and your process should
>have changed/improved

I keep progressive proofs of every colour. I can print almost exactly the
same whenever I have the need.

>Do you store away 60 sheets of the same paper to ensure compatibility?

Yes. I purchase about 8,000.00 worth of paper.  This is a batch lot of 300
plus sheets 22" x 28" . All the paper is as close as damn is to swearing.
So I can use it with assurance that nothing will be different.

>What about the excitement and the creative thoughts
>that were going thru your head during that initial printing ?

Exactly.... The initial printing is exciting and creative.  All of the
prints done during the varification of the plates and colour are thrown
away.  These are the work up to the final prints that I will do.....now or
10 years down the road. It does not matter as I have very accurate notes
and proofs to recall what I did and want to achieve.

>Is this fair to the original buyers ?

They are purchasing an image which is original and limited edition to the
quantity I define.
So what is unfair? I'm confussed by your remark.


>What about those 10-15 buyers who think they got 12/75 but in
>reality maybe they only got 12/15 or 12/48 ? How can it be legit to sign
>your name and say a print is 5/75 when you may never print number 16-75
>???? Do you tell your buyers that ...oh by the way 17-75 will be printed
>"later" ? (But only if more people buy this print !).

I don't understand a lot of what you are saying in the above statement.  As
long as the print is numbered and one never produce that image in any other
form or similar imagery then what's the problem. If you want to print one
at a time that is the artist prerogative.
If you don't like it done that way don't buy it.

>I know you are going to say that no two prints are alike, that after the
>creation of the woodblock printing is a mechanical process and that your
>intentions are good, bla,bla, bla, bla. I just don't see it.

You are right about "no two prints are alike"...It is mechanical to a
degree and certainly not creative as such.....such being the process of
developing a new image.
I hope you see it now....I am trying to be as clear and gentle as possible.

>You are quick to judge other printmakers for what they do and how they go
>about THEIR business and call them greedy, but when YOU need an
>additional print(s) to sell you just go out and print another?
>Why judge at all ? I don't have a problem with your method (print a little
><now, print more later!) or with Dave's (print all 100 at one time ).

Would you like to rephrase this..... I did not judge anybody ......I don't
recall pointing any fingers an any individual......I simply put my thought
and ideas out for grabs.

>I know you guys mean well, but I know for a fact (from private emails) that
>you and Ray occassionally have HURT some of the baren members with your
>one-sided holy-than-thou  my-way-or-no-way attitude. Some members have
>stayed away for a period of time because of it.

RAY..... Be gently.........

If that were an accurate and factual statement, there are two solutions to
this.
1.  I will move on and not help the newbies with there problems guiding
them with my experience.
	OR (AND I PREFER THIS SOLUTION)
2.   Those that have thin skins or take everything personal should not read
my postings.

> I will stand beside you when it comes to putting down scam artists, laser
>reproductions and other obvious enemies of printmaking.

That is appreciated.

>While many members are established artists (and may not give a crap
>about your thoughts on this subject)

That could be their loss I suppose if in fact this were true.  I am of the
belief one can learn from anybody.

>a lot of others may be looking at you guys for guidance and instruction
>thru the
>printmaking world......so please  be careful what you say and specially
>how you say it.

Read solution #2 above.
RAY..... Be gently.........

>Maybe I just like to see my work stamped all over coffee-mugs and t-shirts
>!!!!

If you do, it could well be categorize as Mall Art.  If that is what you
want so be it.
It sure is not the kind of artist I want to be. Although there may be
instant gratification, I know in the long run it is not going to help in
achieving my personal objectives.

Graham

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From: Jean Eger <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:11:29 -0800
Subject: [Baren 2345] Re: Baren Digest V5 #375 

Dave, 
Hida Tool has a very nice selection of Japanese woodcutting tools all the
way from small woodblock tools to large saws.  Their catalog costs $4.

I think McClains has a collection equally attractive and they don't charge
for their catalog.  But they aren't a 10 minute drive from me.

I'm glad Ray is back online.

Jean

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End of Baren Digest V5 #377
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