[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest              Sunday, 8 November 1998      Volume 05 : Number 335

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:07:22 -0500
Subject: [Baren 2014] to St. Louis and back 

In response to Richard's 
>Spontaneity is a wonderful thing, and I feel that it ought to exist right
>where it is most at home, with a pencil in one hand, perhaps an eraser 
>in the other and a white sheet of paper before you.

Another method, Richard, is two feet from your eyes, and at your
fingertips.   The computer.   

I reiterate here that I do not carve and print my own work, I design only,
so getting the ideas down on paper is virtually the entire scope of my
work.   I started, and still do, with a sketch on paper, drawn by hand.  
As I am still working on a raft of drawings I've done over the last few
years before my computer, I have not progressed to the point where all the
work is done on the computer, nor do I foresee that happening, as I enjoy
drawing by hand, and the quality of a pen line cannot yet be duplicated by
a mouse.

However, the computer does have advantages elsewhere in the process.  Once
the drawing is down on paper, I can scan it into the computer, and then a
number of things can be done to improve it, and bring it to the point of
completion in a much more rapid fashion.   Any number of changes or
experiments can be made, pushing the composition in whatever creative
direction you want to go, without the need for erasers.  You can keep your
original, as a base, and spin off any of your experiments, keeping all of
them for future evaluation.   You can instantly resize the composition, to
a thumbnail for example, to see it from a distance, or invert it to check
for balance, or to lighten or intensify the color overall or to balance a
certain area.  You name it, it can be done.

In short, it is a wonderful tool which encourages creativity at that point
when you wonder how you could make this a better compostion, should I try
this or do that?  You can do all of them and see where they lead in a
relatively short time.   

Gary 

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:17:01 -0500
Subject: [Baren 2015] 'One-point' lesson ... 

A question, Dave, on your one-pointer.

You stress that the "softness" of the paper is the object rather than its
moistness.

As you are working with a water based pigment, I see the dampness, or
proper moistness of the paper as achieving two things.   It does soften the
paper which makes it more receptive to relief printing, but does it not
also facilitate the dispersion of the pigment which at this point is mixed
with paste on the blocks?  This is not a quality of softness but of
fluidity also isn't it?  

I have seen prints whose pigment looks like a direct printing from the
block, in that if there were brush marks left on the blocks, they were
printed that way on the paper.   I have also seen prints where the color
printed was wonderfully smooth and fluid looking in the sense of being
perfectly and evenly dispersed on the paper, no brush marks visible at all.
  Isn't this a quality achieved by moistness more than softness?

Gary

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From: Gayle Wohlken <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 12:34:06 -0500
Subject: [Baren 2016] Re: Baren Digest V5 #334 

Richard Steiner asked about our methods to reaching the final 
print.  The print I am working on for the exchange was drawn at least
15 times.  I finally got it the way I wanted it and proceeded to carve
it.
I pulled my first print last night and really liked it until I started
looking at the lines.  Places where I knew I carved well showed little 
splits.  (I used poplar, to which I'm accustomed).  My style is bold so
that was okay, but I wasn't prepared for those splits.  Ordinarily they
wouldn't bother me, but after seeing the quality of work we have from 
other Baren members, I feel pretty insecure.  Now I feel I must do the 
whole thing over on another kind of wood.

Gayle Wohlken

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From: StudioJNC@aol.com
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:25:13 EST
Subject: [Baren 2017] Re: Baren Digest V5 #334 

Gayle
Oh do I know what you mean!!!
I have carved two different images and they looked soooo good, until the big
test. My lines were not great. I honestly do not know HOW you can get such
beautifully carved lines in a key block.  I have tried GOOD sharp knives,
Xacto knives, razor blades and still cannot get nice lines. GGGGGRRRRRR!
Speaking of nice lines. I just returned from a trip ;to Paris. On the Quai
Voltaire, left bank, right, directly across from the Louvre is a marvelous
gallery. It has the most wonderful Japanese art on display.  It inspired me
very much , so much that when my prints are completed I am going to try my
hand at the technique. I find printmaking much more difficult than painting or
drawing. But I remain undaunted in spite of all of my crooked lines!!!
Just put two new , crooked line prints on my Web Page. 
Be kind.

Toodles
Jeanne

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From: StudioJNC@aol.com
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:47:46 EST
Subject: [Baren 2018] Re: Baren Digest V5 #334 

Graham

Congratulations on your successes. 
Just returned from St. Ives in Cornwall. Neat looking lighthouse there,
thought of you.

Jeanne

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From: Ramsey Household <cjramsey@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 11:51:42 -0800
Subject: [Baren 2019] Re: to St. Louis and back 

This is Carolyn,

Gary Luedtke wrote:
> Another method, Richard, is two feet from your eyes, and at your
> fingertips.   The computer.

What program do you use to do all of these wonderful things?  Is it only
available for a Mac, or can you use a regular PC?

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From: Wanda Robertson <robertson@canby.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 12:35:33 -0700
Subject: [Baren 2020] Re: to St. Louis and back 

Hi! I'm so glad to be able to contribute one little thing to this
wonderful discussion group!

I also have a Mac, but there are plenty of paint/photo/drawing programs
for IBM type computers. Adobe Photoshop is a great(but spendy) one for
both platforms. You can do amazing stuff with it. I believe there's one
for the PC called "PhotoShop Pro" that is not so expensive, and I've
heard good things about it.

I've been using my computer to resize, reverse, enlarge, etc. my
drawings (for ink linocut so far - but I'm getting me nerve up to do
a hanga woodcut) Of course, the computer will only do *so* much, it
won't do the actual drawing (well, it can - but I prefer the hand
drawn image, too) and it won't do any of the carving. But it can speed
up some parts of the process. It may not be for everyone, though.

Wanda

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:09:37 -0500
Subject: [Baren 2021] Re: to St. Louis and back 

Carolyn,

I use Photo-Styler for my art work.   There are many programs available,
but I found this one easy to use and quite versatile.   I got it several
years ago, and as quickly as these software companies change hands or the
names of their software products, I would guess it's out there in a revised
version and until a different title now.   

I use a regular pc, the only macs I have I just brought back from the
orchards of Wisconsin, they're my favorite apple.

Gary

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 08:29:00 +0900
Subject: [Baren 2022] Re: 'One-point' lesson ... 

Gary wrote:
 
> ... the dampness ... does it not
> also facilitate the dispersion of the pigment?

Just what the water actually _does_ down there in the paper is a topic
suitable for a lot of interesting and complicated research.  I don't
pretend to have any understanding of what happens down there on the
molecular level, and I would be a bit suspicious of anyone who claims to
'know'.

We are working with water-based pigment that must be (take your pick
here) driven into the paper / allowed to disperse through the paper. 

Three cases:

1) When the paper is bone dry (and I'm only speaking of normally sized
Japanese washi here), it doesn't matter how hard you try, the pigment
does not end up being evenly distributed throughout the body of the
paper.  If we were to paint it on directly with a brush, it will _not_ 
disperse between the fibres of its own accord.  If we mash it with 
a baren, it is _not_ pushed between the fibres properly. 

3) When the paper is wet wet wet, the pigment will not penetrate
either.  I would imagine that this is simply because all the small
spaces down in there are simply 'full' of water, and there is no room
for the 'new' water/pigment mixture.

2) But when the paper is in that 'in-between' condition, 'soft' not
'hard', 'damp' not 'wet', the pigment fills the body of the paper
beautifully, and with only a moderate amount of pressure needed.

***

> brush marks ...
> Isn't this a quality achieved by moistness more than softness?

Brush marks come (whether needed or accidental) because the layer of
pigment _on the block_ is not completely smooth, but is left in
alternating 'thick' 'thin' layers.  This can be caused by the brush
hairs actually being too coarse, or by there being too much paste - this
makes the pigment/water/paste mixture too 'stiff', and it thus won't
'lie down' smoothly on the wood.  

This striped 'pattern' of pigment on the wood surface is then simply
transferred directly to the paper by the printing process, resulting in
visible brush marks in the print.  It is not overly affected by changes
in the moisture in the paper itself.

Dave

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 12:48:06 +0900
Subject: [Baren 2023] Lunch-time musings ... 

Gayle wrote:
> ... I wasn't prepared for those
>splits.  Ordinarily they wouldn't bother me, but after
>seeing the quality of work we have from other Baren
>members, I feel pretty insecure.  Now I feel I must do the
>whole thing over on another kind of wood.

Jeanne wrote:
>I have carved two different images and they looked soooo
>good, until the big test. My lines were not great. I
>honestly do not know HOW you can get such beautifully
>carved lines in a key block. ...

>...  It has the most wonderful Japanese art
>on display.  It inspired me very much , so much that when
>my prints are completed I am going to try my hand at the
>technique.

Boy oh boy!  Two of the most important postings ever made on [Baren] -
and on the same day ...

Here is a topic that strikes right to the heart of what this forum is
all about, and reading these messages made me think immediately that I
should put a notice up on the [Baren] Home Page: WARNING - This forum
may be hazardous to your (artistic) health!

I'm speaking of course, of _influence_, and the fact that it is a very
two-edged sword.  I think none of us would deny that having contact with
examples of well-done work can be a great stimulus and encouragement to
improve our own work, but when these outside influences cause us to
doubt our own abilities, or even worse, to push us in directions that we
shouldn't be going, they can, I feel, be counterproductive.

Gayle, you said about those splits - 'ordinarily they wouldn't bother
me'.  But what we _want_ from you is an 'ordinary' Gayle Wohlken print!  

Jeanne, you said 'I honestly do not know HOW you can get such
beautifully carved lines in a key block', but when I look at those
prints on your web page, _my_ vote (this is a purely personal and
subjective viewpoint) goes to the prints done without lines - I find
them vivid and exciting, and much more interesting than the one with the
black outline, which I think lacks the life of the others.

Please don't be put off by these comments, but it seems to me that you
had found a real 'voice' there in those musician prints, and I think
that to take too much influence from Japanese outline methods would not
necessarily take you in a desirable direction.

(By the way, Jeanne's prints are at:
http://www.atlantic.net/~theadm/gallery/printroo.htm)

Maybe I'm making too much of this.  After all, in the text at the bottom
of your page, you say 'The way that I do wood block printing will change
as I further experiment with this wonderful art technique'. I suppose
you might hear my comments as a request for you to 'stand still' and
just keep making the same prints over and over again.   Well, I
certainly can't/won't ask _that_, but ...

... how much influence is _too_ much?

***

I've finished my peanut butter sandwiches, so it's back into the
workroom for now, but I'll be thinking about this as I work this
afternoon.  I'll very much look forward to hearing what Gayle, Jeanne,
and the other [Baren] members have to say about this. Are we 'good' for
each other?  Or ...

Dave

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From: Jean Eger <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 23:41:17 -0800
Subject: [Baren 2024] Re: Baren Digest V5 #334 

Dave,
I agree with the others: that you are providing a glimpse into a world that
we will probably never enter, but about which we greatly desire
understanding.  So keep writing!

Jean Eger

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 00:49:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 2025] The computer issue is back 

Gary wrote.....
>However, the computer does have advantages elsewhere in the process.  Once
>the drawing is down on paper, I can scan it into the computer, and then a
>number of things can be done to improve it, and bring it to the point of
>completion in a much more rapid fashion.   Any number of changes or
>experiments can be made, pushing the composition in whatever creative
>direction you want to go, without the need for erasers.  You can keep your
>original, as a base, and spin off any of your experiments, keeping all of
>them for future evaluation.   You can instantly resize the composition, to
>a thumbnail for example, to see it from a distance, or invert it to check
>for balance, or to lighten or intensify the color overall or to balance a
>certain area.  You name it, it can be done.

Say that is quite something.......I do all this without a computer.....
and I use my Human skills to do any size I want.

>In short, it is a wonderful tool which encourages creativity at that point
>when you wonder how you could make this a better compostion, should I try
>this or do that?  You can do all of them and see where they lead in a
>relatively short time.

Where does it say that time is an issue with Fine Art.
I'm only aware of time being a factor with Commercial Art.

>I use a regular pc, the only macs I have I just brought back from the
>orchards of Wisconsin, they're my favorite apple.

I once read that every major newspaper on the N American continent uses a
Mac because of it graphics capabilities.
You may be missing out on something here Gary.


Graham

ps.  for the newbies.....please develop your drawing skill, composition
knowledge, and colour senses and you won't need to bother with a computer.

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:00:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 2026] Re: to St. Louis and back 

Richard in Kyoto wrote....
>Working with the sketch(es), analysing the colors
>and number of blocks, the printing order and so much more is crucial to
>producing a satisfactory print.  I constantly teach that, the first stage,
>the creative drawing of the image, its reworking, redrawing, throwing away
>and starting again, ALL the artistic activities, are necessary and have
>nothing to so with craftsmanship, everything to do with art. Once you have
>an image you like, that you want to make into a woodblock print, the artist
>(in you) gets up and leaves the room, and the artisan, craftsman, comes in
>and goes to work, which includes the introduction of no new material or
>elements. In Kyoto and Tokyo, there are still plenty of pro carvers and
>printers left. If you were to hire one of them to do a piece for you, you
>wouldn't want them to look at your design, and decide that it should be
>changed here or there.  The same attitude applies when you yourself are
>both artist and artisan.  Jumping into a project, beginning to carve, then
>realizing that you really want something moved over to the left a little,
>something else removed altogether, something more added over there, only
>wastes your time and your money, since you have to throw away that piece of
>wood and grab another in order to finish the piece. Spontaneity is a
>wonderful thing, and I feel that it ought to exist right where it is most
>at home, with a pencil in one hand, perhaps an eraser in the other and a
>white sheet of paper before you.

I have not deleted any of that written by Richard,  I want to read it again
and again....and invite you to join me.

You sure hit the nail on the head, Richard

Thanks

Graham

Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:03:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 2027] Re: to St. Louis and back 

Gary wrote....
>I use a regular pc, the only macs I have I just brought back from the
>orchards of Wisconsin, they're my favorite apple.

Did you PC'er know about this......

Macintosh - we might not get everything right, but at least we knew the
century was going to end.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:16:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 2028] The Art Of It......  

>Gayle wrote:
>> ... I wasn't prepared for those
>>splits.  Ordinarily they wouldn't bother me, but after
>>seeing the quality of work we have from other Baren
>>members, I feel pretty insecure.  Now I feel I must do the
>>whole thing over on another kind of wood.
>
>Jeanne wrote:
>>I have carved two different images and they looked soooo
>>good, until the big test. My lines were not great. I
>>honestly do not know HOW you can get such beautifully
>>carved lines in a key block. ...

Hey  people, it is these small unimportant marks, blemishes or non perfect
and technically incorrect thingies that separate you from the crowd.  They
are or could become your signature in the art you are doing.    You should
never be influenced by perfection of technique over the expression of
image.  The Art Of It......

Just do it and let your marks on paper express YOU.....

Keep plugging and enjoy.

Dave wrote....
... how much influence is _too_ much?

When you copy and sign it, calling it your own......

Graham

If you feel you're too small to make a difference,
you've never been in bed with a mosquito.

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End of Baren Digest V5 #335
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